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Old April 24, 2019, 07:59 AM   #1
rebs
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leaving your range bag in the truck over night ?

If you are going to the range early in the morning is it ok to put your range bag in the truck the night before ? It would save on carrying out all your equipment in the morning. The truck would be locked of course. The reason I ask is because some powders are temp sensitive.
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Old April 24, 2019, 08:06 AM   #2
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I've done it for years and I haven't noticed an "over nighter" causing a problem. Temp sensitive powders simply means that they can perform slightly different when used over wide extremes of temperature. This shows up more from season to season, not over night, unless you had a fifty degree difference over night. Besides, it doesn't take long for a round of ammo to adjust to ambient air temp at the range. Being temp sensitive doesn't change powder permanently, it just effects burn rate a little bit. I just wouldn't leave it sit in a hot car during the day for too many days. Heat is a bigger factor if left in high temps long enough. That can break the powder down.
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Old April 24, 2019, 08:25 AM   #3
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Pretty sure being in a vehicle overnight won’t hurt the powder, if that’s what your asking.

If you go hunting/camping you won’t even need to put it in your sleeping bag with you to keep it warm.

You could even test my theory yourself. Just put a few rounds in a ziplock bag and put them in your freezer today and take them shooting with you this weekend.

When people talk about temperature sensitive powders they are talking about conditions they are shot under, not ones they have encountered in the past.

So if you developed a load at 32 deg F in the winter it might act different in the summer when it’s 100 F but the next winter when it’s 32 again, it will be the same.

If your loads are not right on the edge of safety and your not trying to shoot the smallest single hole group, it’s likely not something you need to worry about.
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Old April 24, 2019, 08:40 AM   #4
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If your loads are not right on the edge of safety and your not trying to shoot the smallest single hole group, it’s likely not something you need to worry about.
That... ^^^

I do a lot of my load testing when I'm on vacation in the NV desert, I've tested my handloads in 118F heat in direct sun (where the fired brass was still hot after 5 minutes you needed gloves to pick it up...) and in more moderate 56F overcast conditions. I can tell you there is a difference at those two extremes with rifle-level cartridges, and perhaps to a lesser extent pistol cartridges... my chrono readings tell me as much... but as JMorris says, unless you are at the pressure redline, or you are looking for benchrest accuracy or consistency, it's a non issue.
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Old April 24, 2019, 09:49 AM   #5
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The main dangers of leaving it overnight are:

1: they will be colder than the range when you arrive and condensation may appear on the guns when you take them out of the bag. Always best to have the guns a little warmer than ambient rather than cooler.

2: Someone will break into the truck. This happened to my neighbor's son-in-law when he and his wife stayed overnight at their place right across the street from me. Some of the local druggie thieves drove by and knew the back door of the model big cab pickup he drives did not trigger the alarm. So they jimmied the back door and stole a revolver from the glove box.
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Old April 24, 2019, 09:56 AM   #6
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Has anyone experimented with "temperature sensitive" powders to see how a change in temperature effects accuracy? My nephew used it as an excuse for making a bad shot on a deer. I would be surprised if it made 1/2" difference at 100 Yards even if you developed the load at 90F and shot it at 30F. Has anyone tried it.
I did notice a 50FPS difference in a 45ACP with WST powder. Shooting IDPA so I couldn't tell if any difference in accuracy. I doubt there was a measurable difference.
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:17 AM   #7
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At ranges as close as 100 yards, a good BC bullet exhibits very little drop. The only way it would make a significant change there is if it took the bullet far enough away from sweet spot barrel time that it exited at a point when the muzzle was swinging the other way. I've seen that make up to about 6" of difference in POI with a light, whippy barrel. But if the gun was a rigid heavy barrelled weapon, it's unlikely you would see much shift.

Where the temperature insensitivity makes a big difference is in keeping the first shot from a cold barrel in the same place. Once the barrel gets warm, that has more influence than powder sensitivity on pressure. It's one reason for taking fouling shots and working up match loads firing at a match pace.
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:19 AM   #8
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My thoughts are mostly along the lines of Unclenick's second point. I don't leave guns in a vehicle overnight because of the possibility of theft. Temperature swings here (coastal Florida) are often less night-to-day than inside-to-outside.
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:19 AM   #9
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Unless you're talking about a notable temperature difference (40+ F), it shouldn't be an issue.

I would not, however, leave your range bag in a vehicle if the bag contains firearms.

Never leave firearms unattended. If you do, you're just asking for them to disappear.

Quote:
Some of the local druggie thieves drove by and knew the back door of the model big cab pickup he drives did not trigger the alarm. So they jimmied the back door and stole a revolver from the glove box.
Sounds about as useful as the factory alarm on my truck.
It is only triggered if a door is opened while still locked. (Ponder that for a few moments... )

So, break a window and open the door (automatically unlocks by pulling door handle) or unlock the door with a Slim Jim, and you're in.
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:25 AM   #10
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I have suggested the reloader haul their ammo around in a cooler. they shoot in the winter and reload/test fire in the summer.

Many years ago I instructed my children if they emptied the vehicle, lock them.

My wife accused me of not locking the P/U. I knew she had a reason for accusing me so I had to ask how she knew. She said someone went through the pick up, she said they emptied the glove box, went through my stuff behind the seats, ash tray. She said in general they left it in a mess, I was thinking that is the way I left it.

And then I asked her about my stuff in the bed, She did not know but she did not ask me 'what stuff?'.

Anyhow. my big chain hoist was still there, two saw horses, cabinet for organizers and two rolls of lead from an x-ray room; hidden in plain sight. The chain hoist has gotten heavier through time and now it takes two people to hang it.

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Old April 24, 2019, 10:51 AM   #11
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Worst place, besides a wet basement, to store stuff is in a vehicle.
Firearms are stolen from vehicles all the time. Yet people still insist on leaving them in a locked vehicle. Cops that know better, included.

As for the whole temp sensitive powder BS!
7mm-08AI using 140 Nosler Ballistic Tip over a charge of RL17 (a suppossed known temp sensitive powder), shooting 400 yards POI difference between 18 degrees F and 89 degrees F was 2.0".

IF you are worried about 2" at 400 yards, i suggest you have bigger things to worry about!
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Old April 24, 2019, 11:06 AM   #12
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That's fine if the barrel timing doesn't shift of its sweet spot. That's the main reason I like loads with wide flat spots. Then I can ignore the temperature factor within the normal limits of range conditions.

This article is worth looking at.
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Old April 24, 2019, 01:36 PM   #13
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"...truck would be locked..." That won't stop a thief.
Otherwise, it depends on where you are and what the temperatures are. Still doesn't make enough difference to matter. You can sit in a deer stand all day in November and the ammo will get just as cold as it will in a truck over night.
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Old April 24, 2019, 04:39 PM   #14
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I have at times carried an old, worn, inexpensive range bag full of a couple fire bricks to lay around as thief-bait and possibly sacrifice that to grab and run at the range, hoping a bulky $1000 rifle and scope would not be targeted.
Really, I like the idea of toying with idiot criminals
No, I would not leave anything I wanted to keep in a vehicle in my driveway overnight. Although, I have left a rifle in my trunk.
I once had a burglar at a rental property steal two $5 HFT decoy video cameras from a front porch and leave behind working cameras. I hope he gets good video quality or at least likes the flashing red light.
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Old April 24, 2019, 05:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete2 View Post
Has anyone experimented with "temperature sensitive" powders to see how a change in temperature effects accuracy? My nephew used it as an excuse for making a bad shot on a deer. I would be surprised if it made 1/2" difference at 100 Yards even if you developed the load at 90F and shot it at 30F. Has anyone tried it.
I did notice a 50FPS difference in a 45ACP with WST powder. Shooting IDPA so I couldn't tell if any difference in accuracy. I doubt there was a measurable difference.
Accuracy is the Least of the problems with temp sensitive powders.

Winchester used to sell inverse temp sensitive powders. Specifically WW452 and WW473. They had higher velocities in cold weather and lower velocities in hot weather. Scary situation for those of us used to normal powders. Thankfully they are discontinued. It's kind of a shame since 452 was a really nice, clean powder for .45's when the temps were mid range.
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Old April 24, 2019, 05:50 PM   #16
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Unrelated to reloading. Thread moved to General Discussion.
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Old April 24, 2019, 09:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator
My thoughts are mostly along the lines of Unclenick's second point. I don't leave guns in a vehicle overnight because of the possibility of theft.
Exactly... don't know much about temp making much of a difference, I'm sure it makes SOME difference, it's chemistry after all. But I never... EVER leave firearms unattended in a vehicle. Only exception is when I'm carrying, and I need to go into a school or post office or where they have a "gun free zone". Even then, it's only unattended for the short time I'm away from the vehicle, and it's hidden under a seat. Glove box or center console would be the first place a thief quick enough to break in, in such a short time, would look.
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Old April 25, 2019, 12:39 PM   #18
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I wouldn't do it anymore, but for a few years, I left my range bag and ammo in the bed of my truck (had a tonneau cover). Wasn't locked, but everything was in three totes I had tied down so they wouldn't slide all around the bed as I drove.

I left them there because I was tired of hauling my ammo and bag in and out of the truck. I was shooting a lot more frequently back then. the guns of course always came inside.

Its kind of strange to think that in the span of, less than 15 years, crime in my city has increased so much. I never really feared anyone would steal my stuff back then.
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Old April 25, 2019, 04:27 PM   #19
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Not for nothing, but years ago I owned an Air Taxi Business. I lived in a very affluent and popular part of town. One night I got home late from a Charter Flight. I off-loaded the airplane with life rafts, life vests, South American navigation charts, and basically anything that was not "normal" for domestic overland flight. I was too tired to drop off the equipment in my hanger so I drove home, parked my car in my reserved parking space, went to my condo and called it a night. Late the next morning I went down to my car so I could get back to the airport and lo and behold, my car was not in its space. Thinking maybe I left it else where, I searched in all the other places I would have left it. I slowly came to the realization that the car was stolen, along with thousands of dollars worth of equipment that I usually would never leave in my trunk. The police said that the car was probably already in a container on the way to South America. It took me days of work that I did not need to put together sales receipts and inventories of what was stolen. I learned my lesson never to leave anything in my car that I did not want to lose. Sometimes its easier to replace the car than the equipment lost inside of it.

This applies to range bags. If I don't want to lose my guns, ammo, ear and eye protection and the other stuff I accumulated in my bag over the years, I don't leave the bag in my car.

Living in South Florida, I would not even leave my range bag in my car which is locked in my garage overnight. There is a wide range of temperature differences between daytime and nighttime temps in the garage and thus a spread in humidity...all of which is not good for ammo nor is it good for metal guns and gun parts.
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Old April 26, 2019, 08:10 AM   #20
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As to the ammo; it will depend on how cold it gets. I left some shotgun reloads in a vehicle overnight while on vacation and the next day I got a lot of poofy reports because that powder/primer combination really don't like cold weather (was about 32 overnight)
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Old April 26, 2019, 08:32 AM   #21
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I don't carry guns in my range bag so the threat of someone stealing my guns iffin they break into my vehicle and take it is a moot point. I'm out some ammo, some paper targets and some ear plugs. Maybe a handgun rest. No different than leaving anything else in a vehicle overnight. My experience with temperature sensitive powers is that it takes extremes, as in developing the load when it's 90 degrees out and then using them when it's 10 degrees. Even then, at normal variation, the noticeable difference at the range is little to none. The only fear would be, running a very slow handgun powder like H110/W296 at starting loads in extreme cold.
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Old April 26, 2019, 02:10 PM   #22
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If the temperature change is enough to produce a 100fps+ change in velocity, it will make a change in the point of impact at 100yds range, and beyond.
With a regular .30 about 1/2". per hundred yards. Roughly.

Take a look at the .308 and the .30-06 shooting the same bullet and the difference in drop between the two. IF cold weather turns your 06 into the speed of a summer .308, there will be a change in drop, at distance.

As to leaving stuff in the car overnight? Not the best idea most of the time. My personal "security" system hasn't failed yet, though its not for everyone..

I'm a slob. And I'm old, and I don't give a rodent's posterior about what other people think, most of the time. My newest car is an 06, with a cracked windshield, and a bashed in door. And, its about half full of trash. old unopened junk mail, old shoes, and a LOT of old empty fast food joint bags and cups. Four door, with only room for the driver and one passenger. Even the dumber crooks look at that and realize there's nothing worth stealing there! (and, there isn't)

If you got nice things, somebody will want them. IF you've got what appears to be crap (but still works) not so much. Not for everyone, though, some people care about appearances...I don't.
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Old April 26, 2019, 05:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddotlight
I believe this thread is directed to the safety of the forearm [sic] inside the truck.
Actually, no, it's not (I'm assuming you meant to write "firearm"). If you take the trouble to read the OP (original post), you'll find that the poster specifically states:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs
The reason I ask is because some powders are temp sensitive.
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Old April 26, 2019, 08:59 PM   #24
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I wouldn't leave firearms in the vehicle overnight. The temperature changes won't effect powder. It will effect the velocity you get.

Quote:
Has anyone experimented with "temperature sensitive" powders to see how a change in temperature effects accuracy?
There has been tons of research on this. MOST powders will see 1-3 fps difference in velocity for each 1 degree of temperature change. Most factory loads are tested at 70 degrees. That means that at 100 degrees your ammo will be 30-90 fps faster than the specs say it should be. At 40 degrees it will be 40-90 fps slower.

For handguns, and even rifles shot at "normal" hunting ranges 90 fps difference is not usually going to matter. If you're using handloads and pushing the envelop with loads developed at 70 degrees, you could find them overloaded at 100.

When you start shooting at or below zero degrees, especially at longer ranges there can be enough velocity change in rifles to make major changes in point of impact.

Some newer powders that are less sensitive to temperature changes will only change velocity about 1/2 fps for every 1 degree of temperature change. Now we're only looking at about 15 fps change for a 30 degree temperature change. Even with a 100 degree change in temperature it'd only be about 50 fps change in velocity.
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Old April 27, 2019, 12:49 PM   #25
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That's an incredibly bad idea. People get into locked cars quite frequently. There were three people here who lost handguns that they left in their cars overnight recently. People with tool chests are frequently targeted.

Leaving a bunch of guns outside and unguarded in a vehicle either in the home or in public is also a bad idea.

Did you know that a common way to steal a car is to simply break into the house and find the keys? So, for example, you load your guns into your SUV so you can go off as soon as you get home, then leave the SUV in the driveway while you take your other car to work.

knock knock, anyone home? Kick the door in, look for the keys to that super sharp looking dodge ram, and scram with it. Oohh, ten grand worth of weapons locked in the tool box in the back? BONUS POINTS!
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