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Old December 8, 2018, 06:33 PM   #1
reynolds357
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Some deer just refuse to die.

Hunting with my 5 year old this evening and he calls up a nice 8 point whitetail with a can call. Seeing as he called it in, I had to shoot it. A 6 point was coming in behind him and he turned to look at the 6 point. At 60 yds, I hit him in the front of his right lung. The deer jumped, ran hard a few steps, trotted over 100 yards to the edge of the field, looked around, walked in the woods, stepped three to four steps back into the field, looked around for 5 to six seconds and then fell dead. The deer was hit with a 90 gr bonded bullet traveling 3725fps from a 257 Roy. It blew up the front of the right lung and blew about 1/4th of the heart away before exiting in front of the left shoulder. There was massive internal damage yet the deer lived that long. I have seen some determined to live animals, but never one this determined. I think he thought the 6 point gored him and he was trying to exact revenge.
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Old December 8, 2018, 08:34 PM   #2
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The oldest buck I ever killed ran over 100 yards total with similar damage. And I've had them fall and never twitch from less dramatic wounds. Incidents like this often lead to bad mouthing the cartridge or bullet used. But the truth is that some just have the will to live.
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Old December 8, 2018, 09:03 PM   #3
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I had a doe turn 180 degrees, and run 20 yards, out of my eyesight with a heart shot.
Still amazed she moved at all as heart was mush, and both lungs destroyed.
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Old December 8, 2018, 09:59 PM   #4
reynolds357
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The oldest buck I ever killed ran over 100 yards total with similar damage. And I've had them fall and never twitch from less dramatic wounds. Incidents like this often lead to bad mouthing the cartridge or bullet used. But the truth is that some just have the will to live.
This was definitely no fault of the bullet. It did its job. They usually go down like lightning strikes when hit by it. In this case, it did its damage.

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Old December 9, 2018, 07:26 PM   #5
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"Lucky U fellers." Y'll didn't have to walk far so to recover you're trophy.
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Old December 9, 2018, 07:45 PM   #6
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This was definitely no fault of the bullet. It did its job. They usually go down like lightning strikes when hit by it. In this case, it did its damage.
If the bullet does not do significant CNS damage, either directly (direct impact damage) or indirectly (hydraulic and/or hydrostatic shock), expect the animal to run, or at least to remain upright.

Sounds like this time you failed to attain the CNS damage needed to drop the animal in place and so it took off. It really has nothing to do with determination of the animal.

Quote:
I had a doe turn 180 degrees, and run 20 yards, out of my eyesight with a heart shot.
Still amazed she moved at all as heart was mush, and both lungs destroyed.
Again, no damage to the CNS and so the animal will remain active or conscious, at least until oxygen and adrenaline run out.
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Old December 9, 2018, 07:55 PM   #7
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If the bullet does not do significant CNS damage, either directly (direct impact damage) or indirectly (hydraulic and/or hydrostatic shock), expect the animal to run, or at least to remain upright.

Sounds like this time you failed to attain the CNS damage needed to drop the animal in place and so it took off. It really has nothing to do with determination of the animal.
I never do CNS damage to the big game I shoot. They usually pile up. There was devastating hydrostatic damage.
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Old December 9, 2018, 11:54 PM   #8
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Actually, based on your description, you have been enjoying the benefits of hydrostatic shock resulting in the instant incapacitation of animals without actually shooting them directly in the brain or brain stem. Hydrostatic is the damage to remote areas due to the bullet's impact and pressure through the body, resulting in damage to areas such as the brain or brain stem, resulting in unconsciousness as the animal bleeds out from the actual impact, or death due to brain or brain stem damage.

The hydraulic shock is typically what you see with the wound cavity that follows the bullet's trajectory.

Your deer did not suffer hydrostatic damage this time and did not go down. It did suffer massive hydraulic damage based on your description, but without the hydrostatic damage, it survived until it either bled out or died due to lack of oxygen.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...e+Killing.html
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Old December 10, 2018, 07:24 AM   #9
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If the bullet does not do significant CNS damage, either directly (direct impact damage) or indirectly (hydraulic and/or hydrostatic shock), expect the animal to run, or at least to remain upright.
Very true.

Most all my deer kills are with a .50 or .54 muzzleloader. i usually try for a high shoulder shot or a high shot just behind the shoulder. With high shoulder shots one sometimes sees a bruise on the back straps: This happened with a large doe i killed in late October.


Killed this buck in mid October on Fort Sill. Bullet was a .490 patched round ball, distance was 35-40 yards. The animal hit the ground, kicked for several seconds and expired.



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Old December 11, 2018, 11:35 PM   #10
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no telling

I've pretty much reached the conclusion that there is no telling what a deer will do when struck with a bullet. Some run, some drop and there appears to be no magic combination of caliber, bullet weight and velocity that insures a DRT kill. I pretty much expect my deer to run some distance when I shoot one these days, one that drops at the shot has not been my experience.

At daylight one year I chanced upon 3 bucks and a doe on a gasline right of way, paced distance later was 225 downhill paces, I'd say solidly over 200 yds. Two spike bucks with longish spikes, were sparring with a slightly larger buck that turned out to have 5 points. On my first shot (308/150gr) I held ON, and at the shot, the racked deer did a sort of sunfish bounce and stood there. One of the spikes made a pass at him along the flank. Believing I had shot under him (I was a good bit younger, and I'd never shot at a deer that far before, heck, I may not have ever shot that far with a .308) I held a littler higher and shot again. Nothing. But the three bucks continued to posture and spar lightlly. I shot a third time holding on the backbone and saw the bullet strike in a large puddle way beyond the deer, ....I was shooting OVER him. On my fourth shot, held low, like a heart shot, the 5 pt went down hard.

At the kill site, I found deer hair sprayed over a wide area where shot #1 happened and a large crease across the back of the 5 point above the spine and just kissing the skin. I believe to this day that the 5 point thought (?) that one of the spikes had dinged him. The final shot, shading low, centered the shoulder.
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Old December 12, 2018, 07:28 AM   #11
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Shot a doe quartering away from me one time at fairly close range (about 20 yards) with a .270. After trailing a couple hundred yards I found it. Cleaning it I effectively "poured" both lungs and a good share of the heart from the body cavity. Some deer do some odd things.
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Old December 12, 2018, 12:17 PM   #12
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I have seen such things rarely over the last 50 years, but enough to know they do happen now and then, and this year it finally happened to me too.

In October I killed one of the largest White Tail Bucks I ever shot. Perfect hit with a 9.3X57 Mauser firing a 250 grain Accu-Bond at 2450 FPS, and the hit was from only about 60 yards away. The placement could not have been better if I had been able to touch the deer with the muzzle. One of those hits that should have just dropped it in it's tracks.

But the deer didn't get the memo.

It ran over 200 yards with a hole on the off side I could put a goose egg in. Lung chunks were on the ground behind where it was standing and the blood was easy to see, but the blood trail got very sparse after about 100 yards and the light was fading. I lost the blood in the dark and and then found my flash light had a broken bulb. I had to come back the next day and follow up the deer, which I found about 100 yards farther into the brush. The way it ran I was starting to believe the Accu-Bond didn't open up, but when I did find that buck I saw the bullet worked to perfection.

It happens now and then. I know it. I had seen it a handful of times in my life with various game animals, but this was the 1st time it happened to me.

Everything was 100% perfect for the shot, and the performance of the bullet looked as good as you could ask for judging from the wound.

Everything was perfect...........except for the fact that the deer acted like I used an arrow instead of a bullet.

Weird.
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Old December 12, 2018, 02:28 PM   #13
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One lung shot deer will tend to not expire for awhile (30 minutes???). I would wait at least an hour before tracking a one lung shot deer; and be ready for another shot after you start tracking him.

A heart shot deer will sometime do his "death run," after being shot in the heart, say, a 100 yard run.

I would favor at least a conical bullet over a patched black powder round ball for deer hunting; because a round ball --- when it hits bone --- will tend to expand into a approx. 2 inch diameter pie plate size, thus lacking in penetration ability.
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Old December 12, 2018, 05:53 PM   #14
reynolds357
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One lung shot deer will tend to not expire for awhile (30 minutes???). I would wait at least an hour before tracking a one lung shot deer; and be ready for another shot after you start tracking him.
I guess it would all depend on what shot with. Single lung with an arrow or round ball, I can see possibility of 30 minutes to die. High powered rifle they will bleed out in a few minutes at max.
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Old December 12, 2018, 07:20 PM   #15
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"I would favor at least a conical bullet over a patched black powder round ball for deer hunting; because a round ball --- when it hits bone --- will tend to expand into a approx. 2 inch diameter pie plate size, thus lacking in penetration ability."

This is only true of very soft lead. If cast from Wheel Weights and just air cooled you have no such problems with them. If you water drop and roll them on files to give them a texture they shoot as well as soft balls and penetrate quite well. Well enough to kill large African game. I have killed a large moose with a round ball and it broke BOTH front shoulder bones and still exited the animal. Dropped him instantly. I have also used hard balls on elk and never recovered a ball. All had exits.

I have made several rifles that were sold at Safari Club that have been used to take the "big 5" and I have many reports on how well they work. As for myself the largest animals I have personally killed with muzzleloaders were horses, cattle and Bison. Nearly all my kills have been made with round balls, but I have killed a few animals (deer horses and cattle) with conicals. I have seen both types kill and I learned what to expect.

I earn about 90% of my living making muzzle-loaders and have been using and making them for about 1/2 a century. I have learned a few things about how they work and how to build them.
Reading the writings of the old timers is eye opening. Start with "Sporting Rifles and their Projectiles" by Forsyth. Soft lead is fine for game up to about 150 pounds, but anything larger should be shot with harder projectiles.
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Old December 12, 2018, 07:21 PM   #16
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How long does it take a double lung-shot deer to run 100 yards and drop?

Five or six seconds---or less? I think that is a quick kill.

Last month my heart-shot eight point went about 20 yards. And no blood trail from the .54 cal. Power Point.
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Old December 13, 2018, 10:33 AM   #17
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I often hunt a straight, abandoned county road and get shots from 10 to 400+ yards. Crossing deer present good shoulder shots, which usually drop them in the road and involve both lungs. If just shot through the heart or lungs, they get into the woods and are hard...to impossible to find quickly, especially if there's no snow.
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Old December 13, 2018, 01:12 PM   #18
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How long does it take a double lung-shot deer to run 100 yards and drop?

Five or six seconds---or less? I think that is a quick kill.
Given some of the places I hunt, I have a few yards of clearing and then woods. Finding a wounded animal through 80 yards of briar, poison ivy, woods can be an extremely daunting and time consuming task.

100 yards on small parcels may be the difference between the deer remaining on your property or not.

So while a few seconds is considered a quick kill (and quick kills are good), it can still be far from ideal.
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Old December 30, 2018, 06:38 PM   #19
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I know I'm a little late to this thread but a hunt of my daughter in laws dad had with a bow reminded me of a hunt of mine long ago.

Deer still in season 2018 and a buck was standing 19 yards by his range finder from his front porch. Shot him with his bow and the arrow went just under the backbone behind the shoulders and he could hear the plop as it went on thru. Deer ran 50 yards into a small river and crossed it. Took him 15 minutes by truck to get around to the other side and picked up the trail... but a short while later lost it. He went back the next two days looking but never found the buck. He just found it hard to believe the buck got away.

My story is long ago, 14yo I think, when hunting blacktail in central CA. We had just driven the jeep up high over a series of ridges when a buck and two does came out below us after we had gotten out of the jeep and looked down from the edge of the fire trail. They moved about halfway up the slope when they paused, I shot the buck (100 yards) and he went down immediately. The does scattered and my dad and brother went down to get the buck while I directed them from above. They came up on either side of him and were 10 feet from him when he popped up and dashed directly upslope. The heavy brush stopped them from shooting but I had a clear view of him and shot three more times at the obviously injured buck before he topped the ridge. The next ravine was shallow and he came in sight quickly as I shot the last round from my Remington 721 30-06. Still moving I hand loaded one round and shot again and another, missing before he topped that ridge. I tried to load more rounds but he came out on the next ridge so fast I only got two in, missing with the first... and finally knocking him down with the 9th round. Father estimated the last shot was 450 yards and thru the back of the shoulder hitting the bucks heart. When shooting the last shot I just guessed at 2-1/2'. I have never shot at a deer or elk that far since but taped a windage, lead and elevation chart on my stock after that event.

Some deer and elk are very tough to kill!
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Old December 31, 2018, 10:38 PM   #20
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I have seen deer, especially larger bucks do amazing things when shot in the heart or lung area. I put 4 .270 130s In one buck at 300 yards. All either in the shoulder, heart or lungs. My son will attest being in the stand with me. We waited 20 or so minutes and found the deer staring at us in the ditch just off the road, head up and alert. The heart and lungs were so soup. Just amazing. I see all kinds of accounts of never losing game or all deer being DRT using certain shots and I chuckle.
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Old January 1, 2019, 09:05 AM   #21
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We waited 20 or so minutes and found the deer staring at us in the ditch just off the road, head up and alert. The heart and lungs were so soup.
Sorry, but this is an anatomical impossibility. Deer are not magical animals. They cannot survive for 20 minutes without a functioning heart and set of lungs. There had to have been at least one partially functioning lung and a functioning heart for the deer to remain conscious for that long of a period of time. Either you misidentified the damaged structures or you misidentified the extent of the damage.
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Old January 1, 2019, 12:24 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Sorry, but this is an anatomical impossibility. Deer are not magical animals. They cannot survive for 20 minutes without a functioning heart and set of lungs. There had to have been at least one partially functioning lung and a functioning heart for the deer to remain conscious for that long of a period of time. Either you misidentified the damaged structures or you misidentified the extent of the damage.
^^^I hafta agree. Or....could be what felt like 20 minutes and what appeared to be an alert deer could have been misjudged.

I love it when friends tell me about this big buck they "double lunged" and then trailed it for a half mile before loosing blood. Had to be bullet failure of course.

As DNS said, deer are not magical. But, some do dye harder than others. For example, a mature 300# buck in good health, will go farther when shot thru the boiler room than his 7 month old nubbin' son. Any deer with adrenaline already in his blood will travel farther when mortally wounded, than if it was totally relaxed and surprised when shot. Still, the difference is only a matter of a few yards, not anything more.

Shot a dandy 10 pointer this fall with my bow. Couldn't have asked for a better hit. Put a X thru the heart and both lungs. Buck was completely relaxed when hit and the deer took three, maybe four bounds from where he was hit. Made it maybe 20 yards. He then fell, got back up, fell again and tumbled down the hill. I immediately texted my oldest son "BBD!". The buck laid there for what seemed forever with his head up and looking around. Musta laid his head down half a dozen times and I figured he was done......only for him to lift, or attempt to lift his head again. Because he seemed so alive I stayed still in the stand for fear of spooking him and him taking off. I didn't even take my eyes off him or take the backup arrow off the rest until I could see no movement at all, this included watching his chest for movement with my binoculars(deer was only about 30 yards away). This all seemed like 20 minutes or more to me. Got down, went up to the buck, and looked him over. Impressed at the lack of ground shrinkage, I pulled him into a level position where I could get a good pic of his ornaments and my bow together. I then texted my son again with the pic. Had anyone asked me, I would have told them all this took a good half an hour or so. According to my phone, those two texts were but 12 minutes apart.........

Once I got up to him, dressed him out and saw the damage done, I realized after he fell the first time, there was little or no awareness of what was happening around him. I knew from the start I could never mount the deer, after watching the life go outta those eyes and the valiant attempt he made to stay alert. Maybe a European mount......
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Old January 3, 2019, 12:19 AM   #23
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People may indeed exaggerate how much damage an animal sustained or how long it lived... but I have seen examples myself that I wouldn’t easily believe had I not observed first hand. I think there’s at least as much if not more exaggeration out there about “drt” kills. I find myself highly skeptical of hunters claiming that about everything they shoot just drops in it’s tracks. Such widely circulated ego-stoking B.S. is why we see people even in this thread surprised at double lung shot deer covering 100 yards or more. That is nothing remarkable. They’re fast. They’re brain isn’t dead just yet. Muscles can exert their greatest forces via anaerobic means for a short intense burst. My buck this year was double lunged with a .300 wm with 180 nosler b-tips. Massive exit, so much blood. Ran in a drunken manner about 40-50 yards, stopped, and fell over stone dead. To me this is perfect performance. To those who ascribe magic killing power to anything that ends in “magnum” or has a polymer tip, this might have been upsetting. More often than not they run. Even with shoulders broke. In my experience they run even further with heart hits than they do with lung hits. I’m not that old but I’ve seen enough and listened to others enough to know that it’s foolish to assume that making a good shot guarantees short or no tracking. That is why if I’ve made a hit and the animal is still in view and not dead, I keep shooting. Some have told me this is senseless meat wasting. When I was 17 I made this assumption. Once. A lost animal that certainly did die of its injury but not before making it to the river left a much sicker feeling in my stomach than a few pounds of bloodshot meat (if that) on a recovered animal dispatched as quickly and humanely as possible.
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Old January 5, 2019, 06:06 PM   #24
reynolds357
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Quote:
. To those who ascribe magic killing power to anything that ends in “magnum” or has a polymer tip, this might have been upsetting.
Where a "magnum" shines is when big bones are hit. They also shine at distance.
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Old January 6, 2019, 12:34 PM   #25
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"Where a "magnum" shines is when big bones are hit."
True in the best cases, but it's also it weakest point.

The bullet has to be up to the task. As an example a bullet that works quite well breaking big bones from an 8MM Mauser can become nothing but a small charge of snake shot when it hits the same bone after it's been fired from an 8MM Rem Mag or a 325 Winchester short mag.

And yet a cast 400 grain 45-70 breaks elk shoulders (both of them) and exits the animal nearly every time, and will shoot clear through one from butt to neck and exit.

As a guide I have seen this more times then I can count. A bullet that works very well in a 7MM Mauser just breaking into "metal sand" when fired from a 7MM Mag.

When I was guiding in the Selway I saw far too many terrible bullet failures with 7MM and 300 mags used by hunters to kill game at 300 yards and farther with good success, who came for an elk hunt and got a 20-30 yard shot. BAD NEWS!

I can assure you from experience that a 30-06 with a 200 grain or 220 grain Partition would out penetrate and usually out kill a 300 Weatherby Mag with the factory 180 grain bullet that were loaded in the 70 and 80s. In fact the penetration of a 220 grain 30-06 was about 2X to3X better then the factory 300 Weatherby. (yes, that correct and not a miswritten line. That is 200% to 300%, so we are clear as to what I just wrote)
That doesn't mean the 300 Weather is not as good (maybe even better) for elk then a 30-06.

It means a faster round needs a tougher bullet. That's all.
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