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Old June 1, 2017, 10:07 AM   #51
Theohazard
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No, you don't need to have a photo ID from your state of residence, and Tom's not saying that either. What he's saying is that you need a valid government-issued photo ID and some government-issue proof of address showing your current residence. For most people, that's just a drivers license; their license has both their photo on it and their name and current address.

But suppose someone has a valid drivers license from, say, OR but they're currently living in WA: Then they'd use their OR drivers license as their photo ID, but they'd need some secondary government-issued document that shows their name and current address that shows their residence in WA. This secondary proof of residence doesn't need to be a photo ID since they already have a photo ID, this proof of residence can be a hunting license, a utility bill (if the utility company is a government entity), vehicle registration, etc.
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Old June 1, 2017, 10:51 AM   #52
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Quote:
Aguila Blanca So, Dogtown Tom, what you're really saying seems to be that, although the BATFE officially recognizes that a person may have multiple states of residence (at non-overlapping periods of time), the BATFE also effectively makes it impossible to purchase firearms (at least from in FFL) in more than one of the states.
I've not written anything remotely close to that.
In fact, I've explained MULTIPLE times how a buyer living in GA, with a California drivers license can acquire any type of firearm while he is living in Georgia.





Quote:
The directives you cite all point to an FFL needing to see photo ID, which means that such things as tax bills from a state in which someone owns a vacation home will not suffice. But just how does someone obtain photo ID in a second state?
Wrong again.
The ATF Ruling 2010-6 clearly says the buyer can use ANY government issued photo ID. But if that does not show the CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS then the buyer needs to provide another government document that shows the buyers name and current residence address.




Quote:
As far as I know, no state will issue a driver's license to someone who maintains a driver's license and residence in another state. Car registrations, if one wanted to register a spare vehicle in the vacation home state, don't include a photo. Perhaps a carry permit would work, IF the second state issues permits, but ... will state B issue a permit using the address in their state if the applicant has a permit and driver's license from state A?
You need to quit imagining the ways to not buy a gun and start reading what ATF says are they ways you can buy a gun.





Quote:
At one time I briefly thought that a passport or passport card might help ... until I remembered that a passport doesn't provide a current residence address.
It can serve as the gov issued photo ID. Add in another government issued document showing the buyers name and current address and you are good to go.





Quote:
So the BATFE recognizes in theory that a person may have more than one state of residence, but then they establish other rules that make it essentially impossible to proceed under that theory. Does that about sum it up?
Not remotely close to what has been written over the last three pages.
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Old June 1, 2017, 02:30 PM   #53
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Well, I have gotten frustrated enough to place a call and write an email to the BATFE for clarification on this matter. I will share the answers I get.
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Old June 1, 2017, 02:42 PM   #54
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Good grief. There is no need for any clarification on this matter. The ATF is very clear on this. But knock yourself out, they're going to tell you the same thing that they've already issued in rulings, the same thing that each ATF Industry Ops agent has told FFLs like Tom and me during our ATF inspections, and the same thing that Tom and I have been telling you over and over again throughout this thread.
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Old June 1, 2017, 02:48 PM   #55
dogtown tom
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Quote:
ShootistPRS Well, I have gotten frustrated enough to place a call and write an email to the BATFE for clarification on this matter. I will share the answers I get.
To be blunt, you need to work on your reading comprehension first, as you likely will not understand when they copy and paste Ruling 2010-6.
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Old June 1, 2017, 02:53 PM   #56
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Theo,
You may be right but when I have a question on details I go to where I can get known valid, first party answers. I don't have to be concerned with misinterpretations or legal meanderings.
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Old June 1, 2017, 02:58 PM   #57
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In that case, you'd be better off contacting a lawyer who specializes in federal firearms law. If you're contacting the ATF via phone or email, you're not guaranteed to get a subject matter expert. Besides, they're probably going to just refer you to Ruling 2010-6 like Tom pointed out.

Also, if you're going to get into legal details, they probably won't answer your question even if they are a subject matter expert. I once asked an ATF Industry Ops agent during an inspection what "close proximity" meant (in reference to ATF Ruling 2011-4). He told me to ask a lawyer.
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Old June 1, 2017, 04:19 PM   #58
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So, dogtown
One other scenario if you please

I moved to GA for college from another state (40+ years ago); and was issued a college ID . It is a state college. Even though, to them, I was out of state student and had to pay tuition as such, my college ID would have allowed me to buy a gun, correct?
Even if my DL was from another state?
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Old June 1, 2017, 05:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
FITASC So, dogtown
One other scenario if you please

I moved to GA for college from another state (40+ years ago); and was issued a college ID . It is a state college. Even though, to them, I was out of state student and had to pay tuition as such, my college ID would have allowed me to buy a gun, correct?
Even if my DL was from another state?
If it was today, YES, you could claim GA while you are living in GA.
Ruling 80-21 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...dents/download
Quote:
27 C.F.R. 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau has been asked to determine the State of residence of out-of-State college students for purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968. “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
Applying the above example to out-of- State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
But note the date of that Ruling.......1980.
It likely would have been legal prior to that as Federal law did not magically change. I would guess that enough questions were posed on that subject to ATF that they issued a ruling to clear it up.
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Old June 1, 2017, 05:06 PM   #60
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Tom, you are accusing others of lacking reading comprehension but, every time I think I'm getting closer to understanding, you post something meant to be helpful that only mussies the waters.

What YOU cited (parsed for clarity, but quoted exactly from your post):

Quote:
section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee.

...

The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . .
How is my reading comprehension faulty?

1) The licensee (FFL) must examine an "identification document" of the transferee.

2) "Identification document" is defined as a government-issued document showing the tranferee's name and residence address.

Yet you say a transferee can use a photo ID from another state, or a passport that has NO address, plus something else. Please explain how that squares with the information YOU cited?
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Old June 1, 2017, 05:48 PM   #61
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Aguila Blanca Tom, you are accusing others of lacking reading comprehension but, every time I think I'm getting closer to understanding, you post something meant to be helpful that only mussies the waters.

What YOU cited (parsed for clarity, but quoted exactly from your post):

(quote deleted)

How is my reading comprehension faulty?

1) The licensee (FFL) must examine an "identification document" of the transferee.

2) "Identification document" is defined as a government-issued document showing the tranferee's name and residence address.

Yet you say a transferee can use a photo ID from another state, or a passport that has NO address, plus something else. Please explain how that squares with the information YOU cited?
Did you read and understand what I wrote in post#52?

Here it is again:
The ATF Ruling 2010-6 clearly says the buyer can use ANY government issued photo ID. But if that does not show the CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS then the buyer needs to provide another government document that shows the buyers name and current residence address.

If you live in Texas October-March, live in Alaska March-October for example. You would have only ONE drivers license (lets say Texas). In order to acquire a firearm in Alaska you simply use your TX DL (as the government issued photo ID) and provide the Alaska dealer with another government issued document that shows your name and current address IN ALASKA.

It's that simple.

If you had read Ruling 2010-6 you would have read the following:

Quote:
........To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.

The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
What is Ruling 2001-5 you ask?
It's Identification of Transferee.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...feree/download

Quote:
18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1)(C): IDENTIFICATION OF TRANSFEREE
27 CFR 178.124: FIREARMS TRANSACTION RECORD
Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the Brady Act. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of the transferee may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located.
ATF Ruling 79-7 is superseded.


ATF Rul. 2001-5
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has received numerous inquiries from Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) regarding the acceptance of identification documents that do not show the purchaser's current residence address. FFLs have asked whether they may accept other documents, such as tax bills or vehicle registration documents, to establish the current residence address of the purchaser.

It has been ATF's longstanding position that licensees may accept a combination of documents to establish the identity of a firearm purchaser. ATF Rul. 79-7, ATFQB 79-1, 26, interpreted a licensee's obligation to obtain satisfactory identification from a purchaser in the manner customarily used in commercial transactions, pursuant to the existing regulations under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). The ruling held that satisfactory identification of a firearms purchaser must include the purchaser's name, age or date of birth, place of residence, and signature. The ruling also held that while a particular document may not be sufficient to meet the statutory requirement for identifying the purchaser, any combination of documents that together disclosed the required information would be acceptable.

ATF Rul. 79-7 has been superseded by an amendment to the GCA. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Brady Act), which took effect in 1994, mandated the use of photo identification documents for transfers subject to the Act. Under the permanent provisions of the Brady Act, which went into effect on November 30, 1998, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer is generally required to initiate a background check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) prior to transferring a firearm to an unlicensed individual.

The Brady Act requires a licensee to identify the nonlicensed transferee by examining a valid government-issued identification document that contains the photograph of the holder. See 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1)(C). This requirement applies to all over-the-counter transfers, even where the transferee holds a permit that qualifies as an exception to the requirement for a NICS check at the time of transfer. 27 CFR 178.124(c)(3)(i).

The Brady Act incorporates the definition of an "identification document" provided by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(2), which is set forth in relevant part as follows:

[A] document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi-governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

ATF regulations further require that the identification document must contain the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder. 27 CFR 178.11.

ATF has received questions from licensees regarding purchasers who present a State-issued driver's license or other identification document that shows either an out-of-date residence address or a mailing address (such as a post office box) in lieu of a residence address. ATF has advised that these identification documents, standing alone, would not satisfy the requirements of the regulations implementing the Brady Act.

It is ATF's position that a combination of documents may be used to satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for an identification document. The prospective transferee must present at least one valid document that meets the statutory definition of an identification document; i.e., it must bear the transferee's name and photograph, it must have been issued by a governmental entity, and it must be of a type intended or commonly accepted for identification purposes. ATF recognizes, however, that some valid government-issued identification documents do not include the bearer's current residence address. Such an identification document may be supplemented with another valid government-issued document that contains the necessary information.

Thus, for example, a licensee may accept a valid driver's license that accurately reflects the purchaser's name, date of birth, and photograph, along with a vehicle registration issued by the State indicating the transferee's current address. Licensees should note that if the law of the State that issued the driver's license provides that the driver's license is invalid due to any reason (i.e., the license is expired or is no longer valid due to an unreported change of address), then the driver's license may not be used for identification purposes under the Brady Act. If a licensee has reasonable cause to question the validity of an identification document, he or she should not proceed with the transfer until those questions can be resolved.

The licensee must record on the Form 4473 the type of identification document(s) presented by the transferee, including any document number. Examples of documents that may be accepted to supplement information on a driver's license or other identification document include a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. However, the document in question must be valid and must have been issued by a government agency.

ATF has also received questions from licensees as to how to comply with the identification document requirement in the case of purchasers who are in the military. Some active duty military personnel may not have driver's licenses from the State in which they are stationed. The only identification document carried by some active duty military personnel is a military identification card that bears the holder's name, date of birth, and photograph, but does not reflect the holder's residence address.

Section 921(b) of the GCA provides that a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. The purchaser's official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located suffice to establish the purchaser's residence for GCA purposes. In combination with a military identification card, such orders will satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for an identification document, even though the purchaser may actually reside in a home that is not located on the military base.

Licensees should note that for purposes of the GCA, military personnel may in some cases have two States of residence. For example, a member of the Armed Forces whose permanent duty station is Fort Benning, Georgia, may actually reside in a home in Alabama. For GCA purposes, that individual is a resident of Georgia when he or she is in Georgia and a resident of Alabama when he or she is in Alabama. If such an individual wishes to purchase a firearm in Alabama, he or she must of course comply with the identification document requirement in the same way as any other Alabama resident.

Held,
the Brady Act and the implementing ATF regulations require licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers to examine a valid government-issued identification document that bears the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder prior to making an over-the-counter transfer to any unlicensed transferee. Licensees may accept a combination of valid, government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the Brady Act. A government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of the transferee may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's current residence address.

Held further,
a purchaser who is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is located within the State where the licensed premises are located.

ATF Ruling 79-7, ATFQB 79-1, 26, is hereby superseded.
Date signed: December 31, 2001
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Old June 1, 2017, 06:01 PM   #62
Theohazard
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Aguila Blanca, Tom is right, even if he's not being terribly tactful about it. Nothing he's posted or cited has said that the photo ID is required to have the current residence address. That ATF quote you posted in your last post doesn't give the full context. The ATF also states that if your photo ID doesn't have your current address on it, you can suppliment the photo ID with a government-issued document showing your name and your current address, and that doesn't need to have your picture on it.

For example, I've sold guns to WA state residents using out-of-state drivers licenses combined with military orders, or Concealed Pistol Licenses, or hunting licenses, or car registrations, etc.
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