The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 29, 2016, 01:17 PM   #1
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
Self Defense Shooting

This video shows the shooting of an attacker by a Jefferson Parish Deputy. Possibly NSFW depending upon where you work. If this is inappropriate material for this site please delete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMKX50dxJQk

It seems to me that the deputy made a number of mistakes and was lucky to survive as the attacker's weapon jammed. Hopefully we can all learn from this.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 03:23 PM   #2
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,819
Well, aside from not having a squad of cops available to you, and the ability to use squad tactics during the search, what mistakes in that very brief clip would you suggest the deputy "correct", and that we could all learn from regarding this incident?

Have you ever searched a commercial building like this? Ever had to do it solo for an alarm call (simple perimeter or movement/sound)? Or, maybe, if you're lucky, with 1 or 2 other cops (and if no K9 is available)?

FWIW, hugging the walls while approaching corners can present its own potentially deadly consequences if you have reason to suspect someone is "waiting" for you. Backing away from a suddenly encountered threat in a linear manner is a reaction that often takes a lot of training to overcome (meaning if only to doing it diagonally).
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 03:27 PM   #3
James K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
To be honest, the video is not good enough to really see any of that, even for sure which is the deputy. Contrary to the TV shows and TV news "experts", surveillance video is usually so poor and grainy that you can't tell Santa Claus from the Easter Bunny unless Rudolph narrates.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 03:29 PM   #4
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
Off the top of my head I'd say he should have had his weapon out of the holster prior to entry. He was completely unaware when approaching the corner, he wasn't just not slicing the pie he wasn't even looking at the corner.

The bad guy got the complete drop on him. If BG's weapon hadn't malfunctioned he had have been dead.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 04:21 PM   #5
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,819
Slicing the pie is an exercise most easily done in real life when you only have one corner to "slice". Or, you have someone else with you who can be responsible for covering the other corner ... or the really close next opposite corner, just inside the opposite corner you're having to pass while slicing the pie of your primary corner.

Most architects don't seem to design their structures keeping in mind how easily they could be searched by LE.

In the limited bit of video clip, the deputy presumably couldn't know if someone was waiting/hiding around either corner as he "entered" through the "doorway" of the roll-up door, or whether someone might be waiting to ambush him from on top of whatever that cube structure was to his left ... or from around something on the opposite side of the huge space, higher up any stairs behind the camera's field-of-view, etc.

It can be more than a little daunting to try and search/clear a huge commercial structure containing separate areas, and the advantage is almost always going to go to the "hiding suspect", who only has to remain still and waiting.

Motionless is much harder to detect than something/one in motion, due to both stillness and probable lack of noise. In this case, the deputy might've been lucky, in one respect, that the armed suspect was both moving, and maybe making noise.

Yes, a suspect's malfunctioning firearm is always a tactical & situational advantage for the cop. Sometimes a suspect's gun experiencing a malfunction isn't discovered until examination of the gun, after it's become part of the evidence, though.

Something that can be pretty intimidating, and not a little scary, is when LE may put together training scenarios where the "responding cops" have to search structures for "suspects", and role players are used to wait to ambush them. I really liked K9's when they were available, but sometimes the circumstances of the particular situation mitigate against use of a dog, or something about it might be a policy problem, or if a K9 handler doesn't feel the dog can be properly utilized in that particular situation ... may put the burden back on the cop.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 04:36 PM   #6
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
I'll agree that searching large commercial structures is much more difficult. However that doesn't mean you don't take any precautions and just hope for the best. Draw your weapon before starting and have it at the ready or even low ready if you think there might be employees on the scene.

There is no reason to be moving that quickly either. The building isn't going anywhere. I would have slowed down to a much slower gait that allowed me to methodically look around more. There is nothing wrong with exercising some tactical patience. Rushing through in hurry means you are going to miss stuff.

I am curious as to why he is searching that large structure by himself? Doesn't make a lot of sense in today's environment where the bad guys seem much more willing to die in an attack on LEOs.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 04:42 PM   #7
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,330
It looks like footage from a ghost site.

I've done these walk throughs. Like the general said, even one mine in the field is high risk.

If he did have his weapon holstered, he maybe shouldn't have. That changed from pursuit, during which the sidearm is best kept available, rather than in hand, into an ambush.

If there was even a slight error in procedures it was maybe just a few feet or seconds, when he should have transitioned from chasing a running suspect to searching a facility for an embedded bad guy.

Imo, that chump was too wrapped up in current events and thought for some reason that he would draw a gun on a cop and survive.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 04:53 PM   #8
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,330
Btw, unless I'm mistaken it appears that his hand was at his holster as soon as he cleared the door. He took a few steps,assessed what he was seeing, and the "runner" had doubled back to kill him, like African game will. Given another second, we would have seen him call in for backup, since his partner was already busy.

It's hard to see where he could have improved his performance given his knowledge.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 07:54 PM   #9
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,447
If the building is supposed to be empty, like after the hours of normal business, was there really a need to go inside?
What's wrong if the solo officer waited outside to see who was there, how many of them and what the situation actually was?
And wait for assistance.
Might be better than relying on dumb luck.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 29, 2016, 09:06 PM   #10
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,330
It was a newspaper warehouse. Lights were in, Texas bay door was open, t was a warehouse of a company that operates a night shift, possibly hostages,it was entirely proper for the guy to set a few feet into the door. His choices were to wait outside and risk God knows what happening, or cautiously proceeded call for backup. Guy might have come outside and shot him anyway.

I really feel like that guy was intending to kill the cop and would have gone out after him.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 12:53 AM   #11
Ton
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2014
Posts: 78
I don't know any of the backstory to this AND this is an extremely grainy video BUT since this is a tactics and training discussion. . .

It appears to me that he came into the room jogging/running with one hand on his radio and one hand on his holstered pistol. This would suggest he was doing more than just clearing a building on an alarm call. I would say he had probably already seen the suspect or even been in a foot pursuit with him.

I'll agree with Old Bill. Based on MY training and experience and MY agencies policies. . . alot of tactically unsound decisions were made. Not I would have necessarily done any better in the officer's shoes, every LE knows when things go sideways on a call, you have to act, and sometimes textbook execution just doesn't happen when things are moving a million miles an hour.

I have been trained and had hammered into my head by mistakes made during sims training that if you are in a foot pursuit and lose sight of someone for more than a moment, STOP. Get more officers, more resources, and set up a perimeter. If you lose the guy, oh well. It's not worth dying over.

If it was just a simple building search, it should have been done with a bare minimum of 3 people for a building that size. At least 4 would be preferable. I'm well aware that not all agencies have alot of resources or officers and that cops search buildings and houses alone all the time. That doesn't make it safe, or smart. If my agency can't provide an additional officer or two so that I can search a commercial building with some degree of safety on an alarm call, I'm not going to search the building.

Slow things down. Worst case scenario if you move too slow, suspect gets away. Worst case scenario if you move too fast, you die.

Again, the officer was making split second decisions in a rapidly evolving situation. I'm in no way trying to say the officer was being stupid or careless. However, the way we continually learn to do things safer is by evaluating and debriefing incidents like these.
Ton is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 08:47 AM   #12
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,040
You do what you have to do.

I got into LE in '74. We didn't have enough cops. We didn't have (then) back up all the time. We didn't have dogs.

You got an alarm or found a broken window/door, you investigated it. You searched the building alone because there was any one to assist you. You didn't have dogs.

I kept a little mechanic's mirror in my pocket. I used it to peek around corners. You go quiet and slow. You left your shotgun in the car because it was in the way.

This is one reason I firmly believe learning to shoot one handed is critical. You seldom have two hands free. You always have something in the other hand, a flashlight, a mirror, door knob, something.

When entering a doorway or hall way, you get low, not standing up.

I've searched thousands of buildings in my 20 years. Caught lots of bandits and lived to retire.

Did some get away? I'm sure they did. No way to tell whether they left before or after I got there.

My pet peeve, learn to shoot with one hand, BOTH HANDS, but one at a time.

Weak hand shooting is every bit as important as strong hand shooting. If you are peeking around the left side on a doorway, or cover, with your gun in your right hand you are going to expose more of your body then if you use the gun in your left hand. Or right, use the gun in the right hand.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 01:27 PM   #13
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,819
Yep kraigwy, some of the old lessons are the best lessons.

It would be difficult to make some pronouncement regarding tactics in this particular situation without knowing more of the circumstances, the policies of the agency and the training/experience of the cop. He survived the experience, and now it's part of his experiential knowledge base upon which he'll probably continue to build his judgment.

FWIW, I've known of at least a couple agencies which prohibited breaking leather without documenting it, and had strict policies about doing so for searches.

Like other cops who have searched thousands of commercial and residential buildings and other structures, I've waited for cover on some search situations, and searched solo when no cover was available anytime soon and the search was more important than waiting an hour.

Bottom line, sometimes you can do everything right, with enough "staffing" (used to say "manpower"), and still not be ready for what you come across ... or what finds you.

It's not like there's a perfectly "safe" way to do this sort of thing.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 03:28 PM   #14
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,330
There isn't any information online, but what is there iirc indicates that they got a call,found a runner, pursued, and reached that one tipping point. End pursuit and not enter, or enter and assess. He walked into ambush.


It occurred to me this morning that le officers must learn from this. Runners may become bait, drawing men into further ambushes.. let a whole gang wait while the Judas goat drags in the sacrifice.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 05:46 PM   #15
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,447
^^^
Old Apache trick.
It worked pretty well back then, too.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 06:51 PM   #16
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
It was not uncommon in Iraq for BG's to fire a few shots at a foot patrol and then run off. If you chased them around that corner there could be a VBIED, SVEST or some other kind of IED waiting.

In normal times I would say most criminals are not going to do that. Most criminals are too selfish to want to die. Events of the past month have shown these are not normal times.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 30, 2016, 06:57 PM   #17
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,330
Yes, it did. In el Eldorado, even John Wayne almost fell for it.

All that's missing is a couple of velociraptors sneaking in on the flanks.

It's cause for concern. At this point, many jurisdictions don't allow vehicle pursuit. Bad guys get away. If that trend follows, a bad guy who makes it to any place of possible ambush is free, unless a team traps him in location, and can extract him safety.



Being a cop these days is terrible.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 31, 2016, 01:42 PM   #18
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,819
Foot pursuits have always been more than a little fraught with potential danger.

I knew 2 guys who were killed during foot pursuits. One was quite a while ago, and the other was maybe only 15 years ago.

Another guy who was shot/killed after he arrived on-scene of a shots-fired call involving another officer (traffic stop), and found himself facing AR rifle fire. That was years ago.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.07718 seconds with 8 queries