The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 13, 2016, 05:54 PM   #26
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,438
Quote:
I would suggest that you don't even reach for the wallet since the officer does not know what you are reaching for. I turn on interior lights and roll down my windows when stopped. then I place my hands on the window sill until the officer approaches. I know some states require notifying the officer if you are armed and some don't require it. The etiquette of turning on lights and keeping hands visible is good indication that you are carrying. Informing the officer is better in case you reach for something and he sees the gun.
I want to do all my reaching for stuff while he's a still long way away from my vehicle, so it doesn't matter. When he gets there, my hands are on the wheel. I haven't been pulled over at night in many years; that's why I didn't mention the dome light. (dome light is a good idea)
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old July 14, 2016, 04:15 AM   #27
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 6,737
reaching/movement

Odds are that an officer has had the driver under observation for at least some period of time prior hitting the lights. A good officer will have the tag logged or broadcast well before the lights come on, and have picked a location of sorts that you can get the car into and both be a tad safer.

Be assured, if you are moving about the interior, reaching, rocking your person about, etc, fall into the category of furtive motion, and you have heightened the officers suspicions in advance, and this can be observed while both vehicles are still in motion and prior the lights coming from some distance to the rear. I would recommend one limit any movement they make once a stop is initiated. Don't do anything seemingly overboard, like sticking your hands out the window, on your head, that sort of thing. NOrmal people don't do that. Again, that heightens suspicion. ..... "This guy's been contacted by LE before, I wonder why?"

Hands on the steering wheel is a good practice, as is having your permits available with your license. So too is interior lights at night.
bamaranger is offline  
Old July 14, 2016, 11:19 AM   #28
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,327
I have been involved with police twice with a gun in my car. The first time, I was going through an S curve in town that has several traffic obstacles, rail tracks, pot holes, and it's a two lane wide road with a single lane. A car was behind me, he noticed that I swung around these things, and whatever, I swung out at a comfortable distance, as I had an entire double wide lane.

Well, doing that looks like weaving. He stopped me to check. I told him that the gun was in the glove box, he said "okay, leave it there."

Good enough. Oh, I hadn't been drinking, it was just as I said, avoiding dinks in a rough road, and it looked screwy.

The second was an accident. I told the one who was taking my information about the pistol in the passenger side floor, to lock it up, he said "no need, I know about it now." I've always known to pull the wallet out and put it on the dash as soon as I stop, and keep the hands on the wheel as they come up.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 14, 2016, 06:50 PM   #29
849ACSO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2014
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 625
As a 22 year LEO, the last person I'm worried about being shot by is the person who took the time and paid the expense to get a permit. Shooting cops doesn't require a permit, so nobody gets one for that............ You just need a gun and the propensity to be a criminal............. When I see someone is a permit holder, I don't ask them for their gun, about their gun, or anything even RELATED to guns.

The person with no permit, that's the one I'm watching closley.................
__________________
"The day you stop learning SHOULD directly coincide with the day you stop breathing."
849ACSO is offline  
Old July 14, 2016, 09:55 PM   #30
pappa
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2002
Location: Dade City, Florida
Posts: 51
Treating others like you wish to be treated. That is, life can be stressful enough, so make it easy as possible for those who put themselves on the line every day. The same bad actors around whose presence is reason we carry often have a hatred for LEOs. Takes a few minutes for one stopping you to figure where your attitude lies. Put caring with your compliance and courtesy. My best to each of you.
pappa is offline  
Old July 15, 2016, 06:45 AM   #31
agtman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,151
Action beats reaction ...
agtman is offline  
Old July 15, 2016, 07:15 AM   #32
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
As a 22 year LEO, the last person I'm worried about being shot by is the person who took the time and paid the expense to get a permit. Shooting cops doesn't require a permit, so nobody gets one for that............ You just need a gun and the propensity to be a criminal............. When I see someone is a permit holder, I don't ask them for their gun, about their gun, or anything even RELATED to guns.

The person with no permit, that's the one I'm watching closley.................
Pretty much what the officer at our concealed carry classes said. in Ohio, when they run your plate, they know the registered vehicle owner is a permit holder, and the only remaining question for the officer is whether that is who is actually behind the wheel. Warned my son whose vehicle is registered to me, to do exactly the same as I was trained in a traffic stop.
TimSr is offline  
Old July 15, 2016, 09:54 PM   #33
Kimber84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2013
Location: US
Posts: 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimSr View Post
Pretty much what the officer at our concealed carry classes said. in Ohio, when they run your plate, they know the registered vehicle owner is a permit holder, and the only remaining question for the officer is whether that is who is actually behind the wheel. Warned my son whose vehicle is registered to me, to do exactly the same as I was trained in a traffic stop.


I live in Ohio as well and have had three encounters with law enforcement in the last year. Two collisions with deer and one wildlife officer that we had to call to our farm.

The first deer I hit I told the officer I had my CCW, but that I was not carrying that day. His response "why not?" That took me by surprise.

2nd deer I hit, as soon as the trooper pulled up I told him I had my gun on me, his reply "ok, good, I don't need to see your license"

The third encounter with the wildlife officer was much the same. We had a very vulgar trespasser that started mouthing off to the officer from about 100 yards away right when he got out of his truck. My first words to him "I'm carrying my handgun". His reply "you got my back?" Lol.

All of my experiences with law enforcement I have made it a point to communicate with them right off the bat that A. I have my permit and B whether or not I'm carrying. Their professionalism each time impressed me very much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kimber84 is offline  
Old July 16, 2016, 11:20 AM   #34
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,178
I do not recommend any disarming/gun handling at all. unless a person is suspect for whatever reason, leave the firearm secured in the holster or glove box or console. the more gun handling there is the more likelihood of a negligent discharge.

a lot of good advice here from others.... some states require immediate ccw disclosure status, some do not.

hands in an easier viewed non-threatening position is a good idea even if you're not carrying. interior lights on for night is appreciated greatly.

if you are required to disclose your ccw status or there is a reasonable likelihood of it being discovered, a good initial phrase to say is "officer I have a license to carry a pistol, how do you want to proceed"? do nothing unless directed because you nor the officer want any surprises or misunderstandings. there is nothing wrong with narrating your movements and even saying them before a movement to ensure the officer knows what your intentions are.

the thing to remember is keeping your empty hands in a clearly seen position and having a non-confrontational attitude goes a long way.....

hope that this helps.
JERRYS. is online now  
Old July 18, 2016, 11:30 AM   #35
tedbeau
Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2015
Posts: 54
Quote:
As soon as I got my CWP I changed my SOP. The registration and proof of insurance now resides on the drivers side sun visor in all our vehicles. I carry IWB on my right hip. As soon as I see blue lights and know they are for me, my wallet is coming out of my left back pocket and on the dash it goes. My hands will then be on the top of the steering wheel until told to do otherwise. After of course I've told the officer who I am etc.
This is similar to what I did. I used to carry my wallet in my right rear pocket. When I got my CPL I realized that retrieving my wallet for an LEO was going to make me move my hand towards my weapon. I went out and bought a money clip/wallet that fits in my front pocket on my left side. If I need to retrieve my wallet I do not have to move my right hand towards my weapon.
tedbeau is offline  
Old July 18, 2016, 11:43 AM   #36
849ACSO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2014
Location: Somewhere in the middle
Posts: 625
Quote:
This is similar to what I did. I used to carry my wallet in my right rear pocket. When I got my CPL I realized that retrieving my wallet for an LEO was going to make me move my hand towards my weapon. I went out and bought a money clip/wallet that fits in my front pocket on my left side. If I need to retrieve my wallet I do not have to move my right hand towards my weapon.
Being as respectful as I can here, but your point really isn't a point. As an LEO who has likely never met you before, how am I supposed to know that your right handed and carry your gun strong side? How do I know your not left handed and pocket carry?

Again, I'm not really worried about folks who have the permit, as those are TYPICALLY the folks who aren't really interested in shooting at the police. If you're worried about being misunderstood, the best policy is to LISTEN to what the officer requests of you, then COMMUNICATE that you are doing what you were asked.

FWIW.
__________________
"The day you stop learning SHOULD directly coincide with the day you stop breathing."
849ACSO is offline  
Old July 18, 2016, 08:24 PM   #37
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
Listen to the officer and politely do what he says. If you say the CCW is on your right hip do you really expect him to believe there's no risk if you're reaching on your left side?

People lie to the police all the time. He knows it and expects it of you even though you think he shouldn't.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old July 25, 2016, 11:05 PM   #38
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
This is a curious discussion and lacking more insights from actual LEO's.

I assume everyone I deal with is lying to me. This is practically always true. From the "I stopped at the stop sign" to "just two beers" to "I didn't hit her" to "That's not mine" just about everyone I deal with lies. I celebrate when someone tells me the truth.

I assume everyone I deal with is armed. In our rural county this is a pretty valid assumption. Some people tell me they are armed. I tell them don't reach for it. A lot of people keep their CCL next to their DL so I see quite a few of those. Being armed changes absolutely nothing about the encounter for a routine traffic stop. Because I already believe everyone is armed anyway.

I assume everyone I deal with will want to kill me at some point. People shoot cops because they don't want to go to jail for a DUI and a plenty of other stupid reasons. You may have just robbed a bank or murdered your wife and I have no idea about it. I take a host of measures to protect myself from whomever I am dealing with. The techniques I use are tried and tested techniques learned and compiled over the decades that have resulted in lower police deaths year after (until this year). They are clearly not foolproof. I can do everything right and still die. I train and keep myself in shape. I have to hope to get lucky. Reaction is by definition slower than action.

Rarely, very rarely do I disarm people. The idea here is to prevent a shooting through a misunderstanding or the aggressive offensive actions of the person I am dealing with. The last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone. That does not trump making my wife a widow and kids orphans.

If I believe that the person I am dealing with is intoxicated or dealing in intoxicants disarming them is the first thing I will do before proceeding on to other things. Intoxicated people often don't behave rationally and have difficulty communicating. Practically everyone who gets arrested consumes intoxicants at some point. The link between intoxicants and criminal behavior is rock solid near 100%.

The last person I disarmed who was not a career criminal was an armed security guard in uniform. Another officer who was transporting a prisoner had followed him for several miles and was convinced he was intoxicated based on his driving. Before conducting sobriety tests on him I took his pistol. I disarm everyone I do tests on. Turns out the guy had worked 20 hours straight and was just really tired and falling asleep. I was glad he wasn't drunk or high.


Quote:
If you're worried about being misunderstood, the best policy is to LISTEN to what the officer requests of you, then COMMUNICATE that you are doing what you were asked.
This works best nearly all the time.

Quote:
As a 22 year LEO, the last person I'm worried about being shot by is the person who took the time and paid the expense to get a permit. Shooting cops doesn't require a permit, so nobody gets one for that
True to a point. The point being where they are getting ready to get taken to jail for the first time and they don't want to go. We had a CCL kill an officer a couple of years ago out here at a DUI stop.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 26, 2016, 10:15 PM   #39
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
It has been claimed that some dealers in my area are using non-felon CCW holders to guard their street operations against rivals. Not sure about that, and in someways doesn't make sense to me, but it has been claimed.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old July 26, 2016, 10:32 PM   #40
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
It isn't unusual for a dealer to engage someone with a drug habit but no criminal record to drive them around and deliver drugs. Some of these people have a CCL. Most of the time someone with a drug problem does not keep a clean record for long, especially if they are in a conspiracy to traffic.

Stand on a street corner? Not so much.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old July 27, 2016, 09:22 AM   #41
driz
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2016
Posts: 30
The thing you have to remember is that people and I mean anybody can be purely STUPID. Yea that means cops too. Stumbling drooling stupid and I truly mean that.
I once had a biker with his wife in a car who came back NCIC "armed / Dangerous. What a moose 6'7 300 lbs pure muscle with all the tats to go with it. I went up to the car gun behind my back and told him I wanted ID. What does he do but dive right under the seat as I jam a 23 Glock right into his collar bone. So what does he do but look up at me with a smile and say "oh excuse me " and out comes his wallet in his hand from under the seat. Long story short I cuffed him up and frisked his pissed off old lady then ended up letting him go because someone typoed the entry and this guy was just a suspect but no warrants or A/D. Duhhhhhh!
Another time it's about half hour pre sunrise at the same small border port. I hear a small sound outside and peek out to see someone had snuck in and parked way up in the corner of the parking lot and was slowly walking towards the door. I wonder who this could be dropping by in the wee hours then I see it. Big chunk of stainless in his right hand, just a glint of it off the parking lot lights that carried to the parking lot. Wow, I catch a brick piece of the door frame and pull my glock and holler at the guy asking him what he wants. " I got something I have to give YOU. Oh I guess you don't know me, I'm deputy -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-head from downstate. I leave my 45 here when I go to my camp in Canada." This wasn't long after Oklahoma City either. In the end I tell him to put that thing away and I swear he almost looked like I hurt his feelings. Can you imagine? I asked him what in hell he was thinking and it didn't seem to register too well. That from a cop no less.
The point of all this is that you just can't ever feel confident that ANYBODY will do the sensible thing and yes that Homer Simpson could be you. People are strange and far more unpredictable than sharks and bears. That's why I always practiced keeping that booger picker up against the inside of the back strap when I pull my gun. It's just cheap insurance against AD's when using something like a Glock or similar.
What can Joe Anybody do to avoid these things? Keep those mits up on the steering wheel or vicinity. Don't do anything fast like dive under a seat or into a glove box. Just keep still with those hands where the cop can see them and do what he says , also stay in the car unless and until they tell you to get out and do everything at a regular pace . Then stand there till they tell you otherwise preferably with hands in full sight.
As a cop, well just expect the unexpected and try to take advantage of whatever cover is available. Use those take down lights most every dept has now days. That blinding light keeps them from seeing you well. Take a second to read the people. What are they doing, what aren't they doing, where are they looking. You can learn a lot in just a few seconds if you are looking. Stay tight to the car if there is only one in there. He can't snap off a shot without pointing it right past his own face if he gets froggy which slows him down a lot. I always liked to rest my hands on my gun and belt like some stereotypical cowboy. It's comfortable and you are already half way there if you need to pull it. Beyond that be careful and ready for anything.
driz is offline  
Old August 4, 2016, 01:27 PM   #42
j3ffr0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2012
Location: VA
Posts: 197
I've been pulled over a lot in my lifetime. I personally think it's bad advice to try to dig out license and registration before the officer gets to your window unless it is very, very handy (and if it is, then what is the rush?). If he/she was in a real hurry, I wouldn't have been pulled over in the first place. It's obvious I'm in a hurry -- that's probably why I got pulled over. No -- It's not worth any remote chance that the officer might be suspicious of what I'm reaching for. What if I look like the suspect in the robbery, or someone got mad at me and reported by car as stolen? Not worth it!

I roll down the window, turn off the car, put my hands on the wheel, and don't speak until spoken to. If I'm carrying, I tell them about it. If it's night, the dome light is on. I feel like the the officer notices my reasonable effort to do nothing unless instructed, and we both know we are trying be safe without saying a word about it.

In Virginia, we are supposed to disclose whether or not we have a permit and whether or not we are carrying. If I lived somewhere else, I would do the same, because I would want to know if I was in the officer's shoes.
j3ffr0 is offline  
Old August 6, 2016, 01:30 PM   #43
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
I like the idea that someone mentioned about just not riding with your wallet in your pocket. Go ahead and set it on the dash, in the cup holder, between your legs, etc.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!!
If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging.
OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old August 6, 2016, 02:25 PM   #44
Tinner666
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2012
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 352
Been stopped often. I just sit quietly with hands on the open and when he approaches, I tell them I have a CCW and I'm armed, and just followed any directions he gave. Never had an issue.
Just a couple of weeks ago, we had a small theft and I offered to take the officer to where someone had told me the potential suspect could be. The officer watched me put on my holster, drop my pistol in it and I asked "My vehicle, or yours?". He said his and started to empty the seat, and said I could ride in the back to save him the trouble. He opened the door and said hop in and off we went.
A few months back, out beat cop dropped into a neighborhood get together and somehow the discussion got to lights on porches. I raised my hand and told him we had blue lights on the porch. He said that was nice as everybody smiled. I said it wasn't just symbolic though. I told him he could come to us for anything from water, to observation help, or a full-fledged firefight if he needed us. You know, everybody looked down and his eyes kinda changed and I thought he was going to cry for a moment there.
He now stops by at random intervals knowing we have his back.
Of course, this is Va. and this is normal here.
My son is state trooper and he gets real antsy if a carrier doesn't mention he's armed. Tell him you're armed and he feels safer knowing more about you then.
__________________
Frank--
Member, GoA, NRA-ILA, SAF, NRA Life Member
Tinner666 is offline  
Old August 6, 2016, 02:33 PM   #45
Sgt127
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2002
Posts: 914
I've been pulled over maybe 3 times in 20 years.

I roll down the windows, have my wallet in my hands. Both hands on the steering wheel.

As he gets to my window I say:

"Hello (officer, deputy, trooper) I'm a police Officer, I've got my gun on me, what would you like me to do?.."

Period. Balls in his court, he's in charge.

Funniest ever. Got stopped going home at 3:00. Uniform pants and T shirt. Shed everything else.

Got stopped. Did my routine, he says, I pulled you over because you don't have any tail lights.

Me: seriously? Nothing?

Nope.

Buddy, can I get out and see what's up?

Sure.

I get the the back, yep. Nothing. I know I had tail lights a couple days ago. It just passed inspection. -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-?

Can I open the trunk and check the bulbs?

Sure

Pause..."say, we good about that whole 'I'm PO-lice' thing?"

Him: "sure"

"Cool. Because as soon as I open that trunk, the first things you see will be a decked out AR and an Ithaca Stakeout 12 ga. We still good?"

Whacked the back of both light housings, both lights came on. Damned German car electronics.
Sgt127 is offline  
Old August 15, 2016, 07:57 AM   #46
t45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2010
Location: Foothills, NC
Posts: 782
When driving I put my wallet in a cup holder in my truck. That way if I'm stopped, the officer does not see any odd movement from me when I'm going for my wallet. In NC more times than not, they come up on the passenger side so I'm ready to let that window down if they do so. Interior lights always come on to ease there mind when approaching me. NC is a shall notify state, so I let them know immediately that I have a CC permit and whether or not I'm carrying. I've only been stopped a few times in my life (53yrs old) but it's the least i can do to help the officer feel safe while they conduct the stop. Keep in mind that even though you are an upstanding citizen, they don't know that.
t45 is offline  
Old August 15, 2016, 08:32 AM   #47
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,108
Quote:
When driving I put my wallet in a cup holder in my truck. That way if I'm stopped, the officer does not see any odd movement from me when I'm going for my wallet. In NC more times than not, they come up on the passenger side so I'm ready to let that window down if they do so. Interior lights always come on to ease there mind when approaching me. NC is a shall notify state, so I let them know immediately that I have a CC permit and whether or not I'm carrying. I've only been stopped a few times in my life (53yrs old) but it's the least i can do to help the officer feel safe while they conduct the stop. Keep in mind that even though you are an upstanding citizen, they don't know that.
On the flip side, if someone takes a step back and reads that, its really disturbing that its come to it that we're so afraid of police not feeling "safe" that we feel this is prudent or we might die. Note I am not disagreeing with you. I have given the kids (both boy and girl) and the wife the talk about police stops, which turned out prudent in at least one stop.

In my business I interact with Canadians, Brits and Latin Americans a good bit. Our interactions are similar to 3rd world Latin American countries, vs. Canada (well Canadians are ruthlessly polite regardless) or even Britain.
And Frankly I see it becoming more and more like how the police interacted when I went to Southern California, and police interactions there were not good.

I regularly shoot with police, and have not had unprofessional dealings with them, even in LA. But I see it becoming more tense, and the interactions more aggressive.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old August 15, 2016, 10:02 AM   #48
Old Bill Dibble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2016
Posts: 802
Quote:
Our interactions are similar to 3rd world Latin American countries, vs. Canada (well Canadians are ruthlessly polite regardless) or even Britain.
IDK about that. Firstly about "3rd World Country" and next about the dozen+ or so times I have been stopped by the police in the US they have never once asked for a bribe (out of 500,000 miles or so driven). Its either a ticket or a warning. Two stops in Mexico (out of about 500 miles driven in the whole country) and I am running 100% on demanding bribes.
Old Bill Dibble is offline  
Old August 15, 2016, 10:56 AM   #49
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,108
That is a fair point. I was thinking more about the likelihood of violence. I've not had a Toronto cop point a gun at me. That was not uncommon in LA (long story but frequently stopped because I stood out as not supposed to be in the area- white guy living in one of the more interesting areas, with the natural suspicion that I was driving in the area to buy drugs instead of driving to school).

(Interestingly, I never felt unsafe in those situations as they had the procedure down step by step and were very professional about it. I'd feel safer with them than being pulled over by a Louisiana sheriff for example)
zincwarrior is offline  
Old August 15, 2016, 08:16 PM   #50
t45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2010
Location: Foothills, NC
Posts: 782
The way I look at it, there are more police stops at night on YouTube that go wrong than you can count. I personally would be on high alert pulling over a vehicle on a dark highway or country road. I'm not a LEO but i share their concern. The few things I can safely do to put the officer at ease will set the tone for the remainder of the stop. Again, these officers have know idea whether I'm a 53yr old family man that works to much or a 53yr old that just robbed a convenient store and will do anything to end the confrontation. I have a huge respect for these guys and gals. They have a tough job with relatively low starting pay and very little respect that gets worse by the day. They don't have the luxury to know how a traffic stop is going to go before hand. What they do know is that the next traffic stop COULD be there last if their not paying attention.
t45 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12920 seconds with 8 queries