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Old July 13, 2016, 12:38 PM   #76
DontRushTheShot
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WC145, I hate to even acknowledge your comment because obviously you are just stirring the pot more. But when I said "...most carry pocket 9mm or .380's..." obviously I was not talking about armed soldiers I was referring to concealed carriers.

Oh and as a matter of fact my step father served 32 years of duty to this country so... maybe I havn't but I suffered the consiquences of being in a military family as a kid.
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Old July 13, 2016, 12:39 PM   #77
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In answer to the OP's title thread question: Why not go straight for the head shot? Putting Istanbul aside, in any life or death violent event, why not just go straight for the head shot? (This last suggestion is not recommended for LE and only directed at those civilians who lawfully carry.)
I would say every time go for a head shot, if you know you are good enough to hit a moving target that size. If you miss all you might do is get their attention and encourage them to press a button.
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Old July 17, 2016, 08:41 AM   #78
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WC145, I hate to even acknowledge your comment because obviously you are just stirring the pot more. But when I said "...most carry pocket 9mm or .380's..." obviously I was not talking about armed soldiers I was referring to concealed carriers.

Oh and as a matter of fact my step father served 32 years of duty to this country so... maybe I havn't but I suffered the consiquences of being in a military family as a kid.
I wasn't trying to stir anything up. What you were talking about in your post was not obvious because it came across like you were saying that most military carry M16s and pocket 9mms or .380s. I wanted to know where you came up with that idea. If that's not what you meant, fine.

I hope your stepfather enjoyed his 32 year military career, that's quite an accomplishment, something to be proud of. Don't know what "consequences" you might have suffered growing up in a military family. My grandfather served, my dad was a career man, I did 4 years, and my son has been in over 8 years now. I grew up a military brat and am probably better off for it. I hope you're able to work out whatever your issues you have.
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Old July 17, 2016, 04:20 PM   #79
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Moving around as a kid wasn't enjoyable for me. For some people it's a joy to go and see different states and countries and I enjoy traveling now that I'm older but I wasn't asked as a kid if that's what I wanted. I was forced to move to 7 different states and multiple places in Germany. Sorry if I came across rude, hard to express emotion in a post on a forum haha
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Old July 17, 2016, 09:20 PM   #80
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While this is all very nice, does anyone have anything more to say about the central thesis of the OP?
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Old July 18, 2016, 12:50 AM   #81
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covered to death, IMO.
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Old July 18, 2016, 09:05 AM   #82
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Head shot if you can get it. Remember you are under extreme stress and not on the range.

A terrorist vest could very well be filled with TATP since that explosive is undetectable having no nitrate. Impact sensitive, a bullet will set it off like Tannerite.
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Old July 18, 2016, 01:54 PM   #83
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interesting.
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Old July 18, 2016, 01:59 PM   #84
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Or it could rigged to detonate when a switch is released a head shot the trigger is released bang.
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Old July 18, 2016, 02:26 PM   #85
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Or it could rigged to detonate when a switch is released a head shot the trigger is released bang.
You can "what if" or "it could" any scenario to death.

If you have an opportunity to take a head shot at someone bent on killing as many as possible, it would seem foolish not to take it.
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Old July 18, 2016, 02:40 PM   #86
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Alternatively if you can get away with your family it would be foolish not to take it.

You do know dead man switches are a very real and common thing with terrorists right? Whether you kill hi or not he still goes boom.
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Old July 18, 2016, 05:00 PM   #87
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Alternatively if you can get away with your family it would be foolish not to take it.

You do know dead man switches are a very real and common thing with terrorists right? Whether you kill hi or not he still goes boom.
Again, that's just tailoring the scenario to fit your argument.

If you stop him from shooting or reaching his destination, it's better than allowing him to continue to kill until he makes the decision himself.

The one who was shot then detonated himself wasn't in a crowd, and wasn't still killing people. A head shot might have prevented a detonation altogether.

There is no one answer without first knowing all the details, and that's never possible.

Run and hide if that's what you think helps the most
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Old July 18, 2016, 05:56 PM   #88
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Just an interesting point of history, a dead man's s with was created to save lives. A moving vehicle or machine is equipped with pressure switches that deactivate that thing that becomes dangerous if it goes out of control. Your gas pedal is something like one. Lawn mowers and o the yard equipment cannot run without a hand on the device. The grip safety on a 1911 stops it from firing.

The traditional dead man's switch is nothing more than a power interruption s with that must be held open against the pressure of a spring, a nd in case of any sort of control loss, whether picking up a coffee cup or falling to the ground with a heart attack, whatever dangerous situation is controlled by the switch stops.

It didn't ever really mean what it is commonly thought today, it was intended to prevent injury, not cause it.
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Old July 19, 2016, 12:33 PM   #89
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To add to the above post, basically it's what most people would call a "kill switch" more examples would be a jetski or any other watercraft, some atv's have then (though in my experience mainly racing four wheelers have them) also most sport bikes including, dirt bikes, "crotch rockets", anything of this nature. Brian is right, they were made to save lives and they do so very well. I know it has saved my jetski SEVERAL times lol.
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Old July 19, 2016, 01:00 PM   #90
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Kill switch. That's the term I was searching my mind for. It kills power to dangerous devices when there is a dangerous situation.

In a manner of speaking, even a circuit breaker is one, if something allows too much current through, it terminates. A GFC interrupt switch shuts down if the exact amount of current going throughout the hot lead doesn't return through the neutral, indicating that the current has leaked to an unsafe place.
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Old July 19, 2016, 02:27 PM   #91
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Alternatively if you can get away with your family it would be foolish not to take it.

You do know dead man switches are a very real and common thing with terrorists right? Whether you kill hi or not he still goes boom.
Again, that's just tailoring the scenario to fit your argument.
nope not at all. Many of the recent terrorist attacks have been with persons with vests: Bataclan, Turkey, I believe Bangladesh as well. Both the Florida attack and the Dallas attack stopped SWAT by claiming they had bomb vests.
So no.
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Old July 19, 2016, 03:19 PM   #92
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Beg to differ. They did NOT have bomb vests, so shoot him, and he does NOT go boom. Once again, tailor the argument to fit a certain scenario, it still come out in the fact that they were NOT armed.

The yahoos with the guns also composed the scene to their advantage. "DON'T SHOOT ME OR I'LL GO BOOM!" If swat had just gone ahead and popped him at the first chance, or a person in the crowd, would he have saved lives or taken them? That's for history to squabble about.

There is no point in arguing with someone who has made up his mind and cant sacrifice his closely held convictions, in this case, run away and hope for the best. I give up.
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Old July 19, 2016, 03:46 PM   #93
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All three had bomb vests in Istanbul. All three went off, including one killing an officer that had just shot him.
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Old July 19, 2016, 04:20 PM   #94
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There is no point in arguing with someone who has made up his mind and cant sacrifice his closely held convictions, in this case, run away and hope for the best. I give up.
What would you do. ?
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Old July 20, 2016, 06:56 AM   #95
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Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good and should give you some time to follow up with better shots, or take evasive action.
What in ehe world gave you that idea?
It has to be true its on the internet, right?
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Old July 20, 2016, 07:47 AM   #96
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If it really is another dedicated attacker, then you unload the magazine(s) as precisely as possible into the bad guy. You're not like calm and collected as a Ranger sniper so thinking you'll get multiple head shots isn't realistic.
Your endorphins and other hormones will likely cloud your aim. And a wild hit in the ankle or elbow will slow the guy down.
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Old July 20, 2016, 08:20 AM   #97
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I think it's a matter of role and situation. I'm a civilian with a carry permit. In my role as such, I'm going to avoid, run, try to escape, fire if any of the first three options are not available. If you're very close to the terrorist (however you define such) with little or no opportunity to run, take the head shot. If you're farther away and can't run, fire for center of mass if there is a clear line to target. If you're beyond an easy center of mass shot, try to escape. If it's an active shooter, the evidence that I've read indicates that sheltering in place is the worst option.
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Old July 20, 2016, 05:54 PM   #98
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Keep it simple - Center mass of target offered. I doubt most would be calm, cool, and collected enough to "make a headshot" while under fire. I understand that your shots may not have the effect you like, but they may have some effect. Even in body armor, getting shot hurts..........
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Old August 5, 2016, 11:45 AM   #99
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Truth is though in the Air Port scenario. We dont get a choice. They are gun free zones. So if your armed... Your the target.
Not entirely correct. In the US the area past the security check point is a gun free zone. I have carried in airports several times while picking people up.

You can carry in the main airport up to the luggage counter/metal detectors.
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Old August 5, 2016, 02:54 PM   #100
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Depends on state and local laws too.

Anything else to be said in this one?
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