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Old July 12, 2016, 05:48 PM   #51
AK103K
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Without a certified GI James Bond card, I just don't have what it takes.
Well, I havent got my card yet, but Im guessing if thats what it takes to get one, Ill likely be able to qualify. And I only practice once or twice a week.

Then again, I do practice regularly and as relistically as I can, carry and use a full sized handgun (Glock 17), and even my back up (a 26) would be shunned by many who carry these days as being to "large". Funny thing is, I cant ever remember seeing anyone with a "little" gun practicing the least bit realistically, so maybe thats why you hear all the negativity and "its not possible". You get out of it, what you put into it.

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A head shot is one choice out of several, and you have a risk of abject, total failure. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to train with thousands of rounds annually with running, hopping skipping, we are stuck in dead end jobs, using public ranges that toss you out if you even do a double tap. Some of us just ain't no good,and firing at the head is going to do nothing but send stray round downwind. The only choice a person has is to get a better position and go for precision fire, and/or tArget another body part that gives better odds.
That can be understood (to a point I guess), but there are always work arounds if you want/chose to be proficient.

This time of year, I work 50-60+ hours a week with an hour drive on either end of the day. Get up at 3:30 or so, and get to bed at 8-9. I dont have a whole lot of time, but I still figure out a way to get some practice in and reload what I shoot each week as well.

The fact youre "no good" isnt the least bit reassuring, and actually down right negligent if youre carrying a gun. If you choose to, it is your responsibility to at least be reasonably proficient with what you choose to carry.

The average head is about 10"x7" with a 3"x5" focal point that is the "switch". If you cant hit basically a sheet of notebook paper at ten yards and in, you really have no business carrying a gun, dont you think? If you cant, Id suggest its something you may want to try to set a goal for.

As I said eariler, it really isnt all that hard, especially with a little practice. If you dont want to put in the effort, suit yourself. Your choice.

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One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?
Youve stumbled onto a big topic here. Prepare to be severely chastised for saying you think you have a responsibly to "do the right thing", if youre capable. The whole world is ruled by lawyers and insurance companies, and dont even whisper certain subjects, or youll be sued and ruined. Its OK to die, or cause others to die, by doing nothing and /or running away, just dont stand up for yourself or try and do the right thing.

Of course, many of those same people will tell you they carry a fashion accessory gun, to protect themselves of course, not for anything else though, they might get in trouble otherwise.

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My opinion, a very unpopular one, is that when you carry, you have become one of the "militia" and the duty of a militia is to preserve the safety of the people as possible. There are m any things that are worse than dying, and waking up the next day to find out that ten, twenty, or even an entire classroom full of kids died because of a choice to stay alive rather than engage the enemy is one of them.
Not at all unpopular in my very narrow circles, but not something thats popular around here.

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I don't expect our military to go into a fight underarmed. They carry M16's, most carry pocket 9mm's or .380's. You're right, nobody should run from a fight and I can't say that I would stay and fight or run, I can only hope I do what is the best in that situation. Chances are though I'll never encounter a situation where I need to make that choice, mainly because I live in a small town of 10,000 people, there is an airstrip for private planes, and th3 place with the most people at any given time is Walmart. I don't go to Walmart anyways. Also who brought up a school? I thought this "scenario" was occurring in an airport or other largely populated area. A school shooting is a completely different subject, anyone and everyone should do everything they can to stop a school shooting no excuses.
I live in a very rural area. The entire zip code has 450 people in it. There are more whack jobs and general dysfunction out here, than in any city Ive ever lived in or near. And here, the police response is about half an hour on a good day, if theres a Trooper is in the area.

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You're right, nobody should run from a fight and I can't say that I would stay and fight or run, I can only hope I do what is the best in that situation.
Thats all anyone can hope for and offer. I would hope that if my family were in a bad spot and someone were there who "could" do something, they would. From a lot of the responses around here, Im glad they are a little more self reliant and capable themselves. I always told my kids growing up, and still believe it today, theres only one person in this world with your best interest at heart, and responsible for your safety, and thats "you". If you choose to screw that up, then its on no one else.


As with most of these type threads, everyone wins the gunfight they have in their minds. Everything goes as its supposed too, and they always prevail.

Yet in reality, not very many seem to take things too seriously, just look at the guns they choose, and how, and how often they choose to practice/train. Yet when someone suggests that you actually can do something that they seem to not be able to do, that person is the one who is asking for trouble or nuts.

From what Ive seen at the local ranges Ive been to over the years, "reasonably proficient" isnt even on the page for most, and that includes more than a few in law enforcement. If all you do is shoot tight little groups at close range bullseye targets, at your leisure, and have convinced yourself that youre prepared for anything that might come, then youre seriously deluding yourself. You may have the basics down, but thats about it. Time to push your limits a little, put your big boy pants on, and move on.
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Old July 12, 2016, 05:51 PM   #52
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But hell, this attacker is in the middle of a crowd and your gonna just start shooting at him?
Is it better to let him continue?

You're assuming he's "in the middle of a crowd".

You're overlooking the fact that simply dropping into a kneeling or crouched position can give you an angle for a head shot that isn't likely to hit anyone nearby if you miss.
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Old July 12, 2016, 06:02 PM   #53
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If you have family with you, doesn't that change the entire scenario? At that point, you aren't running away from danger, aren't you conveying people your wife and kids, to safety?
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Old July 12, 2016, 06:11 PM   #54
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You're overlooking the fact that simply dropping into a kneeling or crouched position can give you an angle for a head shot that isn't likely to hit anyone nearby if you miss.
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WHAT?!?!?!!?!?! We can employ TACTICS to improve our performance?????

Im SO tired of folks on here saying it cant be done. Its not your responsibility. You should not try to stop the shooter

To quote "if not you...who"? Right then...right there, you may be the only hope for the rest of the people on scene. Police response time will not be as fast as you presenting and firing a single well placed headshot.
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Old July 12, 2016, 06:45 PM   #55
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I don't expect our military to go into a fight underarmed. They carry M16's, most carry pocket 9mm's or .380's.
I've got to call you out on this. Please tell us where you got this idea? Is it from your own military experience?
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Old July 12, 2016, 06:46 PM   #56
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Am, you're off base for starters, I'm not talking about myself.

The concealed carry p permit here requires training and the ability to hit a ten by ten at twenty feet. You presume to say that people who can't shoot to whatever your standard is are negligent, and need to find a way to "work around" obstacles to reach your expected level of proficiency, an individual should surrender his second amendment rights and walk away in shame because you th I k so?

Being able to make a head shot on a target that is dodging b back and forth firing or moving in any way at even twenty or thirty is probably beyond 90 percent of the people I encounter, put them into an exploding situation, I'm pretty sure that I don't know anyone that could head shoot someone who's acting up at fifty feet or farther. Taking that head shot when pelvic shots are possible could be seen as negligent, too. Only in case the shooter misses, and so forth, but a hit would make the shooter the hero of the day.

First you said that I was negligent, suggested that I should give up my gun, and now, you say that I should "put my big boy pants on" and just get better? All this because I'm not willing to, and don't think that I could make a killing head shot during a shooting situation that I'm unwittingly involved in?

You've made some serious demands on people. Be good or give it up. I thought that the general idea was to have It if you c an so you can be safe from danger? You said yourselves that most of the shooters who you see are incapable, even le officers. The end of the line is that being able to head shoot a thug is unnecessary in most gunfight, I believe, and in almost any gunfight one should fire at the largest target with the best chance of disabling the bg
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Old July 12, 2016, 08:28 PM   #57
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Im SO tired of folks on here saying it cant be done.
You and me both.

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The concealed carry p permit here requires training and the ability to hit a ten by ten at twenty feet. You presume to say that people who can't shoot to whatever your standard is are negligent, and need to find a way to "work around" obstacles to reach your expected level of proficiency, an individual should surrender his second amendment rights and walk away in shame because you th I k so?
We are not required to pass any test. Its youre responsibility to be proficient with your gun, or face the consequences of you actions. That applies to anyone, proficient or not.

You seem to want to put words in my mouth here. Where did I ever say anything about taking anyones rights? The whole jist of what Im saying is, its your responsibility to be proficient with your gun, if you intend to carry it. If youre not, its all on you. Just having a gun isnt going to save you, and if youre thinking it is, then youre already in a bad way, and need to wake up.

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Be good or give it up.
I never said give it up. Youre said that. Again, youre trying to putting words in my mouth.

Im saying if you need practice, then practice. Do your due diligence. Its your responsibility to do so, if you plan on carrying a gun and have any thought of actually using it. Dont cry to me about it if youre lacking, not my fault. The Army got it right in their recruitment ads... "be all you can be". Sounds like a good plan, if you plan on carrying a gun.
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Old July 12, 2016, 09:30 PM   #58
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No, that is exactly what you said, among other things, saying that nothing is ever good enough, that only constantly training will allow a person to deserve a ccw license.

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You have no business carrying a gun...
We will always come back to one thing. People who peak at a certain level of proficiency should always try to be better, but nevertheless, people still reach that wall of performance, and no matter how badly we want everybody to be experts, it's not going to happen.

Anyone who believes that he can make a headshot, it's not my problem unless I'm on the other end of the bullet. As you said yourselfI'm never going to do it except in the most extreme circumstances. I only hope that people know their own limitations, and don't press them.

A few months ago I was at my range, and a training session was going on at another section. Out of the blue someone shouted "HE SHOT THE HOSTAGE!" He's working as armed security.

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Old July 12, 2016, 10:11 PM   #59
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Im saying if you need practice, then practice. Do your due diligence. Its your responsibility to do so, if you plan on carrying a gun and have any thought of actually using it. Dont cry to me about it if youre lacking, not my fault. The Army got it right in their recruitment ads... "be all you can be". Sounds like a good plan, if you plan on carrying a gun.
No one is all they can be AK. We all have areas where we don't measure up. Not all of us meet your standard when it comes to training, weapons, or mission objective and some of us are perfectly comfortable with that. My objective is to be as prepared as I can be to use lethal force if necessary, with the time and resources I have available. I will do my very best to satisfy that commitment. I also understand that as member of the gun carrying community I have an obligation to conduct myself honorably and responsibly. That is my mission.
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Old July 13, 2016, 12:03 AM   #60
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That's it. I sure as beck wish I could get a grasp on string theory. I have black holes, quantum entanglement, dark matter, dark energy, and even some of the more abstract bits of relativity at a comfortable grasp, but something about string theory makes me decide not to take head shots at it.

Btw, ever heard about that thing called the force? It really does exist, an all encompassing force that reaches from one end of the known universe clear to the other. It's gravity. The other end of the universe is being affected by the gravitational effects of every bit of the known universe. If we could learn to control and manipulate gravity, assign identifying information to it, we could, in theory, twitch a thumb here on earth an detect it many light years away.
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Old July 13, 2016, 06:36 AM   #61
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One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?
One thing I can't understand is the number of people who use this unrealistic canid/caprid analogy like they plan to pattern their lives after it. It is FAKE, made up by somebody who doesn't understand what sheepdogs actually do. It might as well be based on the Warner Bros. cartoon stereotype. The role of the sheepdog is not just to protect the sheep, but to keep them prisoner to be exploited and then killed at will by the master. The sheep know that if they get out of line, a sheepdog is going to be nipping at their heels, forcing them to comply. The sheepdog is only the 'friend' to the sheep so long as the master says it is so.

However, if sticking to the analogy, and unlike the analogy, people are not sheep. Unlike sheep that can't grow pointy canines, most of those people being left behind have chosen not take care of themselves. Most of those people have chosen not to be armed. Most of those people have chosen not to learn self defense. Most of the people haven't bothered to consider what they would do in a crisis...and many them are gun owners.

Don't expect them to live up to unrealistic analogies about fictional utopian animal behavior. Sheepdogs are not the feel-good, magnanimous pillars of society who live for the sole purpose of protecting the sheep that you see in cartoons or read about in the story supposedly told to Grossman by some unnamed military colonel and then recounted in one of Grosman's books. If you believe that there are just sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves, then you are living in a overly simplified fantasy, not in reality.

However, if you want to fight that fight, you go right ahead. Some of us may be there with you, or not, but don't act like just because others of us carry guns that we have some sort of obligation to strangers and must put the well being of strangers before the well being of ourselves or our families who rely upon us. It is a choice that must be decided on the individual level by humans, not by fictional servant canines.
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Old July 13, 2016, 08:20 AM   #62
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Don't know about all this sheep and dog stuff, but I do know that I'm not likely to make a one-shot head shot, while moving, without aiming (point shooting), at 30 feet, under pressure.

See, I've actually tried something a little like this. A bowling pin is somewhat close to being head-sized. A small group of us tried shooting a series of 5 bowling pins while quickly moving, point-shooting at a distance of about 15 feet. I was using a Glock 17 with 20 rounds. I think I hit maybe one bowling pin first try. After repeated efforts, this improved to maybe 3 bowling pins - between 15-20 rounds fired each time. We had to move a certain distance within a certain amount of time - we were being timed. I learned two things from this - don't move while shooting; only aimed shooting for me, even at 15 feet (forget yards!).

Maybe there are people out there who might be able to do this much better than I was. None of us were able to get proficient at this.
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Old July 13, 2016, 08:32 AM   #63
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In answer to the OP's title thread question: Why not go straight for the head shot? Putting Istanbul aside, in any life or death violent event, why not just go straight for the head shot? (This last suggestion is not recommended for LE and only directed at those civilians who lawfully carry.)
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Old July 13, 2016, 09:22 AM   #64
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I haven't taken head shots at people thankfully, but I do compete where one of the items is to hit moving targets. Hitting a headshot on a swinger at 25 yards which is what we're talking about, in a high stress environment with a CCL style pistol, is certainly beyond my realm of possibility, and would not be worth trying unless I literally couldn't run.

I am sure there are others on the board who can do that. Color me suitably impressed. However, while putting about a thousand rounds downrange a month is normal for me, I am fully aware I am merely a hack, and at this point in life its better to attempt to GTFO then end up a life insurance policy for the wife (who would miss me until the plane reached Cabo... )
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Old July 13, 2016, 09:41 AM   #65
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Zincwarrior, thanks for mentioning your wife. I'm guessing she might miss you a little bit more than that, which brings us to one reason why getting the hell out of Dodge is a valid choice, and for many people, the best one they can make.

If you have a wife and kids, or even parents, for heavens' sake, you have a responsibility to them: to come home safe. The people in your life need you, and it's selfish to put action-movie notions about "honor" and "heroism" ahead of them.
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Old July 13, 2016, 09:57 AM   #66
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If you have a wife and kids, or even parents, for heavens' sake, you have a responsibility to them: to come home safe. The people in your life need you, and it's selfish to put action-movie notions about "honor" and "heroism" ahead of them.
Exactly. This isn't even considering that in many of these circumstances, some of that family will be with us at the time.
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Old July 13, 2016, 10:38 AM   #67
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007, I believe that you really hate that term, so that gives me a good reason to never use it again. Keep in mind, though, that you only have a part of that story, historically, they weren't just herding animals, they were placed with that tiny flock of sheep that the very small farmers had for protection as well. If nothing else, the loyalty of that dog to the shepherd is admirable.I promise, ill stop using it and try to find another analogy that offends fewer people.

I believe in God, duty, the bible, a higher purpose,and a whole lot of other things. The one single law of civilized peopl that really matters, the golden rule, says that we should help others as we would want to be helped. Really, do you believe that every person at a grocery store, the children, old autistic, crippled, blind, or even those staff members forbidden to carry guns don't deserve help because of the choices they made? That they don't deserve your help?

Let's try an analogy, even if it offends you. If you found yourself in probable danger, would you call a cop? a stranger hammered on your door at night and then started prowling around your yard ( don't go shoot him, he's an autistic teenager who moved in down the road, and his guinea pig escaped). Would you call a cop?

My belief is that everyone should make the effort to preserve the well being of their neighbors as far as is possible. Damon, that's a hard thought to stomach at this age, knowing that everywhere I go, the world is full of scumbags who aren't worthy of sacrificing my life or safety.

But, everywhere in the bible, there are directions to give yourself to your fellow man.

Can you save five lives in a shooting incident? I don't care about whether they're Quakers who won't carry a gun, the better part of what we are supposed to be repeatedly states that we are expected, as human beings, to intervene.

Whenever it comes, I'm going to intervene unless the situation just doesn't fit. I'm not walking into a bunch of bangers on a corner shooting at each other, but I couldn't do what you suggest, and I really pray that more people will take charge of the lives of the feeble and do what they should.

I'm not saying to vote liberal, but how can we live in a world where people walked p as t a dead guy for two days? People who won't even look at someone to check for signs of life?
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Old July 13, 2016, 10:53 AM   #68
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I wouldn't push the Bible angle on this. I don't see where Jesus said its cool to wack someone, for any reason. He might get downright offended at the thought.
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Old July 13, 2016, 11:02 AM   #69
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Don't expect them to live up to unrealistic analogies about fictional utopian animal behavior. Sheepdogs are not the feel-good, magnanimous pillars of society who live for the sole purpose of protecting the sheep that you see in cartoons or read about in the story supposedly told to Grossman by some unnamed military colonel and then recounted in one of Grosman's books.
The "Sheepdog" analogy is just that... an ANALOGY. I, for one, think it is a GREAT way to explain the differences in personality types. Especially, to those that look at the armed citizen with some kind of trepidation.

It explains that not all people that carry guns are evil wrong doers. That there exists in society a percentage of people that put the common good above themselves. That there ARE people that run TOWARDS the sound of gun...not away

It also explains that those people are the exception, not the rule. And that its OK to not feel that calling. In fact its by far MORE normal to run away then fight. Either way...its OK.

I know Dave. He (and his family) took a 4 day defensive handgun course that i taught at Front Sight back in the day. Ive sat and broken bread with him. Listened to his lectures, read his books.

I fully understand that the "Sheepdog" analogy is not 100% accurate. But it does describe a complex socitial interaction in terms that are easay to understand and relay. Is that not what an analogy is for?

I have lead that "Sheepdog" life, ALL of my life. I have run towards the sound of guns on more then one occasion and in multiple parts of the world.

I WILL do so again if needed.

For those of you that chose not to step into the fight if a Wolf shows up...thats FINE. That is YOUR decision. No problem with that, truly.

I am proud to stand with my brothers and answer that call. I have pledged multiple times to lay down my life to protect my fellow man.

I train constantly, and not just with guns, so that i can be prepared for that call. It IS a lifestyle for me and guys like me. If thats not for you...thats OK

BUT DONT disparage me or the guys like me for our willingness to give ALL for the common good. We take the "STUFF" seriously.
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Old July 13, 2016, 11:06 AM   #70
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While I think the Golden Rule transcends religion, I agree that religious views can't be discussed here.
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Old July 13, 2016, 11:25 AM   #71
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I have a mountain dog. This sheepdog thing is overrated. They're really bossy. All he wants to do is herd everyone around the house and yard. Whenever we have a party he's always trying to herd us into the center of the room. The wife jokes that we need to get a goat so he can herd it around the back yard.
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Old July 13, 2016, 11:46 AM   #72
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Without starting a huge religious discussion.

There are LOTS of scriptural references to self defense in the Christrian Bible.

"Those that dont own swords, should sell their coats and buy one". Is roughly paraphrased, but that the message.

The idea that Christianity condems defensive conduct is simply not true.
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Old July 13, 2016, 12:00 PM   #73
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Not true to you. Others take the "thou shalt not kill" as the unshakable rule.
Also, forget the wolf/sheep/sheepdog reference. A wiener dog is of course naturally superior.

If you feel that you with your CC is sufficient to deal with a body armored terrorist via headshots, thats fine. I would recommend lots of practice (the fun part!)
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Old July 13, 2016, 12:11 PM   #74
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The idea that Christianity condems defensive conduct is simply not true.
We've already crossed the line I'm afraid. I agree with you or I could not carry a gun. With that said, a compelling case against killing can be made using Biblical text. We cannot go down that path though.

Zincwarrior, I have a 7.5 pound Chihuahua that is protective of his territory and the people who belong to him as any sheepdog.
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Old July 13, 2016, 12:15 PM   #75
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This is off topic. The specific start was a technique. Religious comments are not.

Nor is the ever repeated, sheepdog, flee for your life debate on topic.

Back on course, or this will get shut down.
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