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Old July 1, 2016, 10:31 AM   #26
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while it won't necessarily mean stopping the criminal or terrorist from shooting, a shot to the pelvic area can very well immobilize them and make it easier for your escape. the head is a small target that is even harder to hit when the target is moving. the lower torso/gut/buttocks/pelvis.... a little easier.
One of the Istanbul terrorists was "immobilized" for several seconds after being shot, but still was able to detonate his bomb.

I'd go for the head shot if I was close enough
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Old July 1, 2016, 10:58 AM   #27
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I would try to escape, but...

I train for central mass shots, so that's where my first couple rounds are going.
Having done research on garden variety nut jobs, they seem to pause to reset priorities when confronted with active resistance, even when wearing body armor.
If confronted by an ISIS crazy, he or she might have some actual combat experience, so he or she might press on despite the resistance.

No telling how either of these episodes will end, but I'd rather have something in my hand besides my car keys if I found myself in either situation.
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Old July 1, 2016, 11:46 AM   #28
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3. Body armor doesn't mean bullets just bounce off leaving the wearer unimpacted. At the very least, it's going to feel like a mule kick to the chest. It's going to take some time for a shooter to recover enough, after taking 2 shots of hot 9mm or 45 to the chest....
That "mule kick" is no greater than the recoil of your firearm.

There's a video of a .308 fired point blank at a man with a vest...and it didn't faze him.
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Old July 1, 2016, 11:57 AM   #29
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I would run away like everyone else.

BG with body armor/assault rifle/suicide vest vs.

you...
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Old July 1, 2016, 12:35 PM   #30
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A suicide bomber will not be wearing body armour. If you're close enough to use a hand gun accurately, you're close enough to be blown up when, not if, said suicide nut job blows himself up.
"...video of a .308 fired point blank at a man with a vest..." Dickie Davis, owner of Second Chance Body Armour did that to sell his Hard Core 3 vests years ago. Shot one of his lackeys with an FN from ONE FOOT away. Guy didn't even fall over.
"...gun free zones. So if your armed..." You're the target of the LEO types who are as scared as everybody else, but armed, because you just became a felon depending on where you are. Your American CCW permit is not valid outside the U.S. of A.
"...how to you know the guy is a terrorist and..." A shooter is a shooter. Who cares why he's a shooter? It's irrelevant.
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Old July 1, 2016, 01:13 PM   #31
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Sharkbite, it sounds like the guy shot in the back was an on-duty police officer of some sort.

Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good and should give you some time to follow up with better shots, or take evasive action. What's your alternative - try for a head shot at 20-30 feet? I shoot a lot, but I'm just not that good! Plus, I'm not going to take the time to figure out what, if any, body armor the guy is wearing. I'm just going to start shooting at the most massive part of his body, and if I think I can then take a head shot (assuming he's still active), I might try.
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Old July 1, 2016, 02:01 PM   #32
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Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good
"Equal and opposite reaction"--sound familiar. Basic physics. No free lunch... You are not hitting him any harder then your gun is recoiling.

Ive talked to a few guys that have been shot while wearing soft armor. They decribe it as a modest punch. Soft armor is DESIGNED to spread out the impact force.

One of the guys involved in a shooting was hit center chest (right into the trama plate) and didnt even know he had been hit until someone pointed out the hole in his shirt. Now granted he was hit with a .32acp, but the concept stands.

No knockdown power. VERY little blunt force trauma with standard duty type handguns. Just not going to get the effect you hope for.

Sad but true...
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Old July 1, 2016, 08:51 PM   #33
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Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good and should give you some time to follow up with better shots, or take evasive action.
What in ehe world gave you that idea?
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Old July 11, 2016, 01:25 PM   #34
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Why does everyone enjoy discussing what one would do in a self defense situation where you were forced to draw your ccw and defend yourself? Imo there are people who get a concealed carry permit for their defense, then there are some who want to be the hero after a mass shootout.

Let's put it this way, nobody NEEDS (keyword is "needs") to prepare for a terrorist attack. Like one person said, you can't even carry in an airport. I'd say the majority of people who get a ccp (concealed carry permit) don't ever even need to draw their pistol in public. Fact is a ccp is for self defense, it isn't to seek out an attacker and become a hero that saved people. Basically unless forced to do so you should never engage a terrorist, wether that be a suicide bomber, or just someone shooting up the local mall. Don't do it, I don't give a flying fadoodle how often you train, or if you shoot an IDPA match once a week. Chances are that person has something bigger and easier to kill you with than your pocket pistol. But let's just say, best case scenario you carry a full size pistol, be it a 1911, Glock, or my personal favorite a Sig 226. What do you have on someone with a full auto rifle? Not a damn thing, best case scenario you pop off a lucky shot and nail him in the brain and he's drt, not likely though. Now do I think you should stand by and let someone wreck havoc on 100's or potentially thousands of innocent people? No, what I do think though is you should not do anymore than what is possible. Protect yourself and your family and anyone else you can. If you can warn everybody discretely do so and don't let it be known that you know something is about to go down. In only a situation where it can't get worse should you ever pursue a terrorist type attacker.

I've got a what if for all the "hero" types. What are you gonna do if you miss that first shot? Chances are that's the attacker will then notice you with his fully automatic weapon and literally point and pull, taking out you and anybody near you. Now you're dead because instead of thinking it through you reacted with a hero type mindset. I understand situations like this don't give much time to think, but just because you carry doesn't mean you have to use your weapon if something bad happens.

I personally think everyone should prepare more for break ins, red light hijackings, parking lot muggings, why? Because all of these are 1,000,000 to 1 more likely to happen than you being in a situation where a terrorist decides to attack. You more likely to win money off a scratcher than you are the lottery, just like your more likely to get robbed at Walmart than be part of a terrorist attack.

I know my opinion might be found as rude and maybe even perceived as a scared type. Think what you want, but even I don't know what I'd do in a situation like this. Nobody does because you can train and train and train but when it happens it will be such a suprise that you will forget your training and your basic instincts will kick in.

Also to the person who think that a 9mm+P round will incapacitate an attacker and give you some time, don't count on it. Ever heard of adrenaline? I can't say for sure that it would even hurt anyways... but I've seen running deer shot 5 times with buckshot at 20 feet away and never slow down. I'm sure these terrorist have plenty of adrenaline going through their body... if they are ISIS they are fulfilling their lives dream I mean they are like a tweaker in a meth house, they feel great. Adrenaline can make the body do amazing things and I would never take a shot to try and "hurt" someone, if I'm pulling that trigger it's going in some part of the cns and taking he/she out.

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Old July 11, 2016, 02:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DontRushTheShot
I personally think everyone should prepare more for break ins, red light hijackings, parking lot muggings....

[Y]ou can train and train and train but when it happens it will be such a suprise that you will forget your training and your basic instincts will kick in.
Bold added.

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Old July 11, 2016, 02:37 PM   #36
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Also to the person who think that a 9mm+P round will incapacitate an attacker and give you some time, don't count on it.
I am pretty proficient with a handgun, but I'll admit, I'm not good enough to 1) determine whether or not an attacker is wearing body armor; 2) make a split decision to go for the head first, after verifying he is wearing body armor; 3) while he has his gun pointed in my direction and ready to shoot me; and 4) make that head shot (better be that a brain shot or it might not stop him) while ensuring that I'm not going to shoot someone else by accident.

Good luck with your "head shot". Hope that works out for you. (Yes, that's what we were discussing) Me, I'm going to keep it simple - when under attack, shoot center of mass - at least to start with.
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Old July 11, 2016, 03:13 PM   #37
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Do you honestly think the attacker won't realize he was just shot and quickly figure out who it came from? You better be able to make a headshot because all your going to do is piss the guy off. If you arnt proficient enough with a handgun to make a headshot from 10-15 yards then I'm sorry but you would probably do in this situation... I was speaking as if you knew there was body armor. Sorry if I offended you? But point is that 9mm +P isn't going to help when shot into body armor.

Though I never said I would go for the headshot, I just stated that I didn't think just popping someone in body armor would help very much.
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Old July 11, 2016, 03:15 PM   #38
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@ rinja. Maybe I should have said "You may or may not forget your training, you won't know until you're in the situation."
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Old July 11, 2016, 05:14 PM   #39
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Though I never said I would go for the headshot,
So, then it sounds like you would likely do the same thing that I said I'd do. I never said I wouldn't go for a headshot, just that it is unlikely that would be my 1st or 2nd shot.
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Old July 11, 2016, 05:57 PM   #40
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I dont understand the hesitancy of making head shots, armor or not. If youre close enough, why waste time on COM? Head shots are the "kill switch".

If youre practiced (and I fully realize, this is the key here ), head shots are not at all difficult, even while moving and using no sights. I would certainly say, if you cant quickly and repeatedly make those shots at 7-10 yards, then you probably need some work.
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Old July 11, 2016, 06:43 PM   #41
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Why does everyone enjoy discussing what one would do in a self defense situation where you were forced to draw your ccw and defend yourself?

Imo there are people who get a concealed carry permit for their defense, then there are some who want to be the hero after a mass shootout.
It's called "contingency planning"
It doesn't mean you "want" to do it.
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Old July 11, 2016, 06:43 PM   #42
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You wasted what I would do if the decision to shoot was wade, it had to be done to save lives, to stop the shooter an save lives.

Am I good enough for a head shot at the distance? Who is in. The way if I miss? The best option may be to dump rounds into his butt in til something breaks and he goes down. Aimed at his pelvis I'm going to be far more likely to hit, less likely to throw a wild round off at head level, and a shot almost anywhere in the pelvis, below the vest, is going to put him down like a head shot when hip, thigh,pelvis or spine are shattered. Then if the threat isn't over and I've taken a few more steps he's going to take rounds in the head..

Frankly, I've seen what happens when someone in armor takes a hit, and in a powerful enough weapon, five rounds in the back, even if it doesn't penetrate, he's likely to be badly hurt and will almost certainly be so distracted that he'll stop.

Nothing is certain, so please don't know waste my time telling me how stupid I am. These two options seem good for me, as I'm never going to feel good about a head shot.

A sniper from our tactical unit fired at a had in a hostage situation and missed, putting the round through the guys lower jaw, and DID NOT IMOBILIZE THE GUY. Even a trained, professional sniper with a rifle can blow a head shot. It takes real ands to take a head shot at an active shooter, dodging and twitching. It also takes arrogance and a certain lack of concern for collateral damage.
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Old July 11, 2016, 09:54 PM   #43
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^^ I agree.
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Old July 12, 2016, 07:22 AM   #44
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I dont understand the hesitancy of making head shots, armor or not. ...head shots are not at all difficult, even while moving and using no sights...if you cant quickly and repeatedly make those shots at 7-10 yards, then you probably need some work.
I'll admit that I will rarely make a head shot while moving and not using sights at 21 to 30 feet! (yes, I've actually tried this with similarly sized targets) In fact, it is not even likely that I'll make many body shots at 30 feet moving and shooting using no sights. And, no, I'm not going to practice until I can do this proficiently. Ain't gonna happen. Not in my lifetime....even if I were 18 years old and I practiced this every day for the next 40 years. Without a certified GI James Bond card, I just don't have what it takes.
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Old July 12, 2016, 10:21 AM   #45
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A head shot is one choice out of several, and you have a risk of abject, total failure. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to train with thousands of rounds annually with running, hopping skipping, we are stuck in dead end jobs, using public ranges that toss you out if you even do a double tap. Some of us just ain't no good,and firing at the head is going to do nothing but send stray round downwind. The only choice a person has is to get a better position and go for precision fire, and/or tArget another body part that gives better odds.

One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?

Bomb or no bomb. Do we expect our soldiers and first responders to run towards danger, yet put our own safety above the lives of the rest of the dozens, or even hundreds of people in front of the gun or explosives?

My opinion, a very unpopular one, is that when you carry, you have become one of the "militia" and the duty of a militia is to preserve the safety of the people as possible. There are m any things that are worse than dying, and waking up the next day to find out that ten, twenty, or even an entire classroom full of kids died because of a choice to stay alive rather than engage the enemy is one of them.
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Old July 12, 2016, 12:06 PM   #46
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Old July 12, 2016, 01:18 PM   #47
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I don't expect our military to go into a fight underarmed. They carry M16's, most carry pocket 9mm's or .380's. You're right, nobody should run from a fight and I can't say that I would stay and fight or run, I can only hope I do what is the best in that situation. Chances are though I'll never encounter a situation where I need to make that choice, mainly because I live in a small town of 10,000 people, there is an airstrip for private planes, and th3 place with the most people at any given time is Walmart. I don't go to Walmart anyways. Also who brought up a school? I thought this "scenario" was occurring in an airport or other largely populated area. A school shooting is a completely different subject, anyone and everyone should do everything they can to stop a school shooting no excuses.
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Old July 12, 2016, 02:10 PM   #48
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I have no issue with you. For that matter, I have no intention of condemning in hindsight anyone who is unable to fight and save lives, but someone who plans in advance to bail out and leave others in danger don't deserve my respect. Regarding a school, is there a place in America that is safe from mass killings? Not that I am aware of. Let's look back thirty years. Sitting in my truck, waiting to pick up my daughter, what would I do if I heard shots? It can't be good, it's not cops, this happened with no context, so I'm going to grab my pistol and run. Those opening shots are almost certainly an aggressor, or there would have obviously been a police presence.

It doesn't matter to me if it's Isis or an autistic boy, if it can be stopped, even if it means sacrifice, people should be willing to sacrifice to save others. How many people generally die in school shootings, and how long do they last? Too many, and barely long enough for first responders to get on scene.
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Old July 12, 2016, 03:02 PM   #49
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Ok let me just say this then I have nothing else to say about the topic.

In my opinion in a terrorist shooting situation there is two ways it can go if you try to stop the attack by killing him. You die, or he dies. If I have my family to protect and can flee the situation getting them to safety I will do so. If I can stop the attacker I will do so, but I don't flee for myself. My first and only goal in a situation like the depicted scenario would be to get my family away from the area. In a situation where I was alone I would help as many women and children as possible and then seek out the attacker where I would then go about ending the rampage in the quickest without myself dieing.

I don't want to die, I'm in my early 20's I have a lot left to live for, but like I said I don't flee for myself

But hell, this attacker is in the middle of a crowd and your gonna just start shooting at him?
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Old July 12, 2016, 03:13 PM   #50
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There is no real defense from a suicide bomber they doint usually wear a placard saying i am a suicide bomber. Unless you somehow know he is a suicide bomber and walk up and put a round in his head you are on a hiding to nothing. If like in the video you drop him and than see he has a bomb run.
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