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Old May 13, 2016, 07:18 PM   #1
Kimio
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At what point would/should you step in?

We're not sheep dogs, that's for sure. However, watching this video, I found myself asking if I'd step in or not.

In the video below, a Georgia woman at a gas station managed to fight off tow men who were attempting to car jack her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EdmqinWjiM

Towards the end, two cars rolled up and after watching for a short while, just went on about their business from what I can tell.

It would be difficult to determine what is going on if you were not there at the start of the whole scene I think, but I wonder what you all think you would do if you saw this going on?
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Old May 13, 2016, 07:34 PM   #2
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The guys who pulled up and left may have thought it was a domestic assault.

Not having been there, it's hard to say if I would have or not, but if I hadn't and the girl had been wounded or killed, I would forever regret not intervening.

At what point does 'It's just a car' become outweighed by 'assault with a deadly weapon'?
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Old May 13, 2016, 07:51 PM   #3
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Makes you think, hard to honestly say. Looked like she was giving them all they could handle. Once the low life punched her. Once you open you mouth,be prepared to go all the way if necessary. Seemed to end OK without anyone beinga hero.
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Old May 13, 2016, 11:49 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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The threshold question must always be is, "Do you really know what is actually going on?" And if you came in late, like the guys in the video, there's a real good chance you really don't know what's going on.
  1. You might be legally justified in using lforce in defense of others, but only if person you are defending would have been justified in using force to defend himself. If not, your act of violence could be a criminal act subjecting you to prosecution, conviction and jail.

  2. So if you are considering using force in defense of someone, are you sure you know what happened? Are you sure you know who the original aggressor was? Are you sure that the person you intend to help is the innocent good guy? If you think you know, but are wrong, you are risking jail and your family's future.

    1. You might think a kid is being kidnapped, but no one is going to be giving you the key to the city for shooting the father taking his kid, in mid-tantrum, outside for a "time out.

    2. The guy you think is beating up an old lady might be a caregiver trying to get a confused and combative Alzheimer patient out of traffic to safety.

    3. You think that a scruffy bum is beating up some guy, but you won't get a medal for shooting an undercover cop trying to arrest a pimp who is resisting. You'll be going to jail instead.

    4. And you certainly won't be getting any congratulations if you injure an innocent bystander in the process.

    5. And if you think you know, but are wrong, you will be shooting the innocent good guy.

  3. If you can't be absolutely sure what's going on, you still don't have to do nothing. But do things that limit jeopardy to you and minimize the risk of making hash of things.

    1. Call 911,

    2. Be a good witness

    3. Take notes,

    4. Take photos,

    5. Let those folks involved in the apparent conflict know they've been seen,

    6. Be prepared to defend yourself if necessary.

  4. There's an adage from medicine which applies here. "First, do no harm."
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Old May 14, 2016, 10:11 AM   #5
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I would add to Franks list above. If confronted with the scene in the vid link, all of Franks ideas are good ones. I would PERSONALLY give some loud and authoritative verbal commands

A hearty and bellowing "STOP", might be all that is required to get the bad guys to flee. If there is a mistake in identifying who the "badguys" are, then no harm has been done.

Making my presence known puts me at additional risk, but that is a situation im trained and prepared to handle. To sit by and watch that woman be injured or possible killed, when i had the means and ability to intervene is not in my programing. Too many years in a professional protective role has left its mark.

Unfortunately, way too many people on the gun forums only think about the gun as the answer. Loud verbals, that let the criminal know they have more to worry about then the intended victim, can change their intentions quickly.

If that causes them to put their knees in the breeze...good. If not, and she starts screaming for help...ive got one more indication of whats really happening. Then the escalation of force scale starts ramping up. How far you go is always up to you. Me, i could not live with myself if i watched her get injured/killed in front of me snd i did nothing. YMMV
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Old May 14, 2016, 10:26 AM   #6
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Never Freeze

Quote:
but I wonder what you all think you would do if you saw this going on?
Not too many years ago, there was a study conducted on how people react, in situations like this and very difficult, if not impossible, to predict. Thankfully, military training does provide some training. The study broke it down to three reactions; Flee, Freeze or Fight. The worse of the three choices, is to freeze and that is the one that has to be trained out of us. There is a time to flee and fight and no time to freeze. .....

When I see someone stealing a car, I dial 911.
When I see a guy attacking a women and especially a child, I'm all in.

Be Safe !!!
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Last edited by Pahoo; May 14, 2016 at 02:21 PM.
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Old May 14, 2016, 10:44 AM   #7
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Frank makes excellent points. Even making yourself known by shouting or blowing the horn could bring a barrage of fire upon your car. I agree with calling 911 and being a good witness unless you are 100% sure of what is going on. That said, I may be more inclined to act if a child or woman is being severely beaten - hard to turn your back on that.

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Old May 14, 2016, 10:51 AM   #8
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This liberal State.
Since I carry. Nothing!!~~ Until a hand gun was deliberately pointed at me then there would be one less perpetrator for the Boys in Blue to interview. I wouldn't get close enough to allow myself to be stabbed either. To volunteer my service's so's too fight another's battle at my age is simply stupid to do.
This particular circumstance as observed. I would make one hellava good witness for the Prosecutor.
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Old May 14, 2016, 11:36 AM   #9
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And its is YOUR CHOICE to sit there and watch this woman get her head smashed into the concrete and end up horribly injured or dead.

If your choice is to sit by and be a good witness then that is YOUR choice. Im not saying that i would intervene in all situations. But, when things turn violent and me acting is the only hope that person has of surviving that attack, I literally could not carry that burden. To sit and watch someone be beaten or killed when i had the means, ability and training to do something...

The Sheepdog, Sheep, Wolf analogy has been beaten to death. I know Dave Grossman (who popularized the analogy) and i firmly agree with his finding on the subject. Some people are hard wired to be Sheep. NOTHING wrong with that. In fact, it SHOULD be the "normal" position of intelligent Humans. Unfortunately, there ARE wolves out there waiting to pray on others. There are also people that are hard wired to protect their fellow man when needed.

Those of us that interceded on the school playground against the bully pushing around the weaker kids. Those of us that have volunteered to go into harms way and go TOWARDS the sound of guns. Both in Law Enforcement, Military, and for me Protective Security work around the world.

I thank God that there are guys out there that are not going to sit and watch some helpless person be attacked and killed. As for me personally....
Im in...
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Old May 14, 2016, 12:35 PM   #10
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I think "life threatening situation" should be thought of. What was happening stinks...BUT what if She was packing?? Shoot/kill over a car ? Even being a woman,I would think She is doing time.
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Old May 14, 2016, 02:24 PM   #11
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Remember the scene in Tombstone where Virgil Earp witnesses chaos in the streets and is disgusted by it. I do.

He draws his gun and shoots down the ruffians right there in a fit of righteous justice.

No not really. He becomes an officer of the law and then sets out to change things.

I carry a gun to protect me and mine. Its not easy, practicing takes time from my family and doing so may actually put me at more risk in certain situations. I accept that I will almost certainly be sued in court if I ever have to use it. I accept that if I use it to protect my family or myself I will probably be portrayed as some maniac even if I am found not guilty of any crime. Going to the grocery store after my "vigilantism" will, oddly enough, put me at more risk from someone seeking "justice" after being riled up by the television.

No. Sorry. I recommend highly that individuals, especially those who can be physically overcome fairly easily, train and arm themselves for their own protection. However if society wanted me to assume that role there would be a clear indication of it. There is not so no.

The situation laid out is laid out too academically. It ignores the concept of confounding variables and lays out right and wrong too simply. It ignores the fact that even a justified shooting that is morally sound is a negative action and has negative consequences in this life and, for those who believe in such, the next. I will accept these consequences for my family. For some random stranger. I probably make a good witness and if I do not endanger my children doing so may make that presence as a good witness known. Am I acting? Not more than calling 911 and recording the events at hand.
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Old May 14, 2016, 02:49 PM   #12
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We only have two choices.

I once had a similar situation. A drunk man was kicking a woman down the stairs, outside a local tavern. She was much smaller than her but just as drunk as he was. Regardless, she did not deserve what he was doing to her. I stopped my car and started yelling at him as well as honking the horn. Told him that the cops had been called. He stopped pretty fast and staggered back into the bar. I left soon after that and don't think the woman ever knew what happened. My reaction to this situation was instinctive and without hesitation. I am no one's hero, a veteran and when it comes to protecting kids and yes, I guess most women, I react. .......

You should have seen me at one of our little league games but that is another story. ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 14, 2016, 02:58 PM   #13
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Instinctive ? George Patton once came upon a kidnapping in progess !! George acted -- only to find the men were helping the woman OUT of the car .Sorry George !
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Old May 14, 2016, 03:26 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
...its is YOUR CHOICE to sit there and watch this woman get her head smashed into the concrete and end up horribly injured or dead....
Who said anything like that? That's not what it shows in the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
...Im not saying that i would intervene in all situations. But, when things turn violent and me acting is the only hope that person has of surviving that attack, I literally could not carry that burden. To sit and watch someone be beaten or killed when i had the means, ability and training to do something...
If that's really what's happening?

How well could you carry the burden if the guy you shot and killed turned out to be an innocent graduate student desperately trying to defend himself against a PCP crazed street person, and your mistake as to what was going on left his young wife a destitute widow and his three young children without a father? Add to your burden the fact that you are now going to jail -- leaving behind your family, impoverished by legal bills and without you as primary breadwinner.

You won't make that mistake? Well sometimes even a cop gets it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
...The Sheepdog, Sheep, Wolf analogy has been beaten to death. I know Dave Grossman (who popularized the analogy) and i firmly agree with his finding on the subject. Some people are hard wired to be Sheep. NOTHING wrong with that. In fact, it SHOULD be the "normal" position of intelligent Humans. Unfortunately, there ARE wolves out there waiting to pray on others. There are also people that are hard wired to protect their fellow man when needed....
It may be pleasing to one's vanity to think of himself as the "sheepdog." But the important thing is to be able to assess a rapidly unfolding critical incident and take actions appropriate to helping matters -- instead of making things worse.
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Old May 14, 2016, 04:23 PM   #15
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Take command presence and find out what the heck is going on. Use your authoritative voice, say it with your chest and ask "HEY! What's going on here?!" Get their attention. I'm not saying impersonate law enforcement, not at all. But if it looks fishy, trust your gut and proceed with restraint. Protect yourself from liability but do something.
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Old May 15, 2016, 01:16 AM   #16
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The sheepdog has it easy. It's rather easy for them to tell the difference between sheep and the critters that are out to get them. Throw a cannibal sheep in the mix and they would have troubles too.

I'm a sheepdog. But my flock doesn't include every sheep I run across.
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Old May 15, 2016, 06:50 AM   #17
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I'm just observing that particular situation in the video. She escalated the situation that caused the violence inflicted upon her. (Yes, I'm a female and I'm saying that).

No piece of material property is worth being harmed over. Unless there was a child in the backseat that we aren't aware of.

I have my own hard boundaries set for when I will draw my weapon to use. Over a car, no. Over something inside my house, no. Over someone in my house, that is a situation you can only answer when it takes place and the circumstance happening at the time. I do carry on body at home though, I don't live in fantasy land of puppy dogs and rainbows. I carry a gun for work everyday, I know the unexpected always happens when you least expect it.

As for fighting someone's else's battle for them, too many variables for each situation for a definite yes or no answer. Most likely I would call 911 and remain out of it. Sometimes you never know if the victim will turn on you for whatever reason as well.

In her case, I would have dialed 911 and made a good witness since she didn't appear to be in life threatening danger at the time. He was treating her more like a nuisance.
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Old May 15, 2016, 07:42 AM   #18
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One of the things not being discussed is walking into a case of domestic violence. Pretty much every police officer whom I've asked (I used to work near the old NYC Police Academy and had many conversations with instructors there) has said that domestic violence is the most dangerous intervention. You may be seeing some guy smacking a woman while she screams (or vice versa), but when you intervene you just might find that both turn on you. Should you ignore it? I wouldn't. My response would be to call 911 and let people who are trained to handle these situations do their job. If you can snag a video or picture in a public place, it could be useful in sorting things out later. I wouldn't go near them, and if they turn their attention to me I would leave in haste.
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Old May 15, 2016, 09:40 AM   #19
Lohman446
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If the lives of my wife or children are in danger I am willing to act with great violence secure in the morality of my action and willing to let the legal and social consequences be what they may. I believe, in every instance I would act, that the law is on my side but frankly it is a secondary concern.

My three year old used to have violent fits and temper tantrums. She is also mostly non-verbal and her words at that time included "no" and "stop." When these happened in a store or restaurant the only choice was for myself or my wife to carry her out of the store to the van. I recall in at least one situation noting that walking out with her doing this, with no diaper bag with me, it probably did not look right. I am as concerned about the individuals carrying who are so certain that they are the "sheep dogs" as I am about the "wolves" because at least with the "wolves" I assume they are looking for an easy target which I make conscious action to not present as. Those who convinced themselves that they are "sheepdogs" like misread those actions as marking me as a "wolf." Those that act, convinced in the moral superiority and righteousness of their actions, as "sheep dogs" are likely to do as much damage as any wolf could.

They are also, from a political standpoint, more likely to damage the cause of gun rights. Society assigns roles to individuals and even those with assigned roles have been under attack lately about the use of violent force - see nearly every mass reported police shooting.

Let's take the case of Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin as a case study. Mr. Zimmerman was acting within the legal guidelines if one accepts the outcome of the court case. One could even argue that, as a member of the community watch, he was acting in accordance with the role his community had asked him to. Still the outcome should not be entirely surprising. He intervened, or simply followed who he deemed a suspicious individual. His "suspect," perhaps realizing he was being followed, reacted. We know how it ended and many of us wonder exactly what happened between Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman. Still he was within the confines of the law and acted, it seems, as that "sheep dog." Do you think Mr. Zimmerman is comfortable going into the grocery store at night? You do notice that more than one person demands "justice"? I wonder, if in quiet reflection, Mr. Zimmerman does not wish he had called the police. I wonder if the outcome would have been different had those following Mr. Martin been uniformed or trained as police officers.

Those of you who wish to be sheepdogs may. Be assured that, if I perceive a violent threat against my children, I and many others like me are unlikely to care about the difference between a "sheepdog" and a "wolf".
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Old May 15, 2016, 10:06 AM   #20
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No time for optioons or thoughts

Quote:
I'm just observing that particular situation in the video. She escalated the situation that caused the violence inflicted upon her. (Yes, I'm a female and I'm saying that).
It doesn't matter as this is the way she reacted and did not have the option or time of running through scenarios. Right now, I can say that my wife would have gotten the heck out of there. On the other hand, my daughter would have fought. When these thing happen, you have no time to think and you "can't" plan on what you would do. .........


Be Safe !!!
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Old May 15, 2016, 10:11 AM   #21
Lohman446
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Quote:
It doesn't matter as this is the way she reacted and did not have the option or time of running through scenarios. Right now, I can say that my wife would have gotten the heck out of there. On the other hand, my daughter would have fought. When these thing happen, you have no time to think and you "can't" plan on what you would do. .........
I disagree to some extent. You can decide if you are going to favor flight or fight at least in your mind and you can instill this in your day to day routine before things get out of hand. I have left more than one public venue because I did not like the "looks" of things or how a particular individual was acting. Maintaining the ability to retreat does not happen only at the moment violence is presented.
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Old May 15, 2016, 10:26 AM   #22
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Hindsight is 20/20

Quote:
I disagree to some extent.
I understand and do accept. Perhaps I can make it simpler by stating that in this situation, "I" would tell my wife and daughter, to Flee . However, I don't have to tell my wife and it's a waste of time telling this to my daughter. ....

Remember the last time some jerk insulted you and later, regret that you didn't have the right come-back ready at the time? .......

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 15, 2016, 10:55 AM   #23
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If she can't resist carjacking, assault and battery, and other crimes against her, without being accused of 'escalating' the situation, then what about the much-quoted 'guns are used to stop a million crimes a year' we all love to bandy about on this forum? Only a percentage of those involve deadly threat to life.

She has every right to resist any and all wrongdoings against her.
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Old May 15, 2016, 11:11 AM   #24
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It costs you nothing and is entirely legal to yell "stop!" or "What's going on?" or "I'm calling the cops!" before actually stepping in and intervening. If they flee, great, but if they decide to attack you, it would now be perfectly justifiable self defense. If they ignore you there are other ways of getting their attention, like shaking up your coke and spraying them, or something else obnoxious.
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Old May 15, 2016, 11:20 AM   #25
redhologram
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I'm just calling it like I saw it. The carjacking seemed unavoidable. The following assault and battery she took, could have been avoided.

She can resist all she wants, yes, she has every right, more power to her. But there are always consequences to any action.

I just choose to pick what is worth battling over and what isn't.

And I don't "bandy" any quotes around on this forum.

And to my recollection, the OP asked our opinion. My opinion belongs to me and me alone. It isn't up for debate.
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