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Old May 12, 2016, 10:24 AM   #26
Skans
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I think I'd stick the two weapons you already have. I personally prefer a handgun over a shotgun. About the only thing you might think about doing is obtaining some soft-lead hollowpoint ammo with some kind of poly-coating. I'd stay away from copper jacketed ball ammo.

What about that polycase ammo - I thought I read that stuff was designed where over penetration may be a problem? Never used it myself.
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Old May 13, 2016, 09:07 PM   #27
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"Tactically" speaking, for using firearms, my situation does suck, you're absolutely right. Being at a loss, I reached out to y'all, and some other like minded folk, to try to get some better ideas than what I had. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many ways around it; I can't currently utilize a firearm safely for home defense.

Thank you for the compliment on the drawing. I'm no artist, and that particular sketch was done in bed with one of the kids magic markers. I humbly add it was hastily done; note the lack of bathrooms. I actually do a bit of technical drawings/layouts for machine work. I am a gunsmith; you darned kids and your RMR mounted slides take a bit of planning to cut properly. I do what I love and love what I do.

I love the idea about the dog bone and work boots. I think I'll tell my mother about that one; she lives alone without a firearm. She uses an early warning device her grandmother taught her: metal clothes hangers on the doorknob and a laundry basket just behind the door to trip them up a bit. She does have the advantage of a trusty, and loud, beagle.

Being a bit broken from my army days, I do walk with a cane. Im no martial artist, or even all that coordinated, but, I've done a bit of reading and practicing with my Cold Steel Irish Blackthorn Shileleigh. I'm confident I could take the piss and vinegar out of someone with a whack from that thing. It also helps to keep me from falling over, which is useful. I would still rather have the ability to use a firearm, of course. God created man, Sam colt made them equal. I wouldn't want my girls lives depending on my ability to dance with my cane. But, you're absolutely right, in anyone's circumstance, lethal force, especially that with firearms should be, and is, the last resort of a long list of layers to a responsible personal defense plan.

Ill have to do some figuring on how to get a two way comms situation setup for the girls, and how to get them not to use it to tell me knock knock jokes at 3am, but I like the idea. Thanks for the clarification! I, too, would not be able to stop myself from putting my body between the girls and whatever harm may come, however "tactically" unsound it may be.

Heres the million dollar gut check question: Your backstop is a neighbors house, but your target is a BG with a knife to your daughters throat. Do you take the shot? If your neighbor took the same shot and the round passed through the bad guy and hit you, what would you do? What if it hit your daughter? We are all firearms enthusiasts, and are pro gun, and sometimes its a hard pill to swallow to admit firearms have their limitations. This being a public forum, I will only answer one of the above questions.

If youre my neighbor, you take the shot and it hits me, but saves your daughter. You will need to buy me a beer.... And possibly mow my lawn for the foreseeable future.

Be safe, friends. Use your head for more than a hat rack.
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Last edited by Fade2Grey; May 13, 2016 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old May 14, 2016, 07:41 AM   #28
g.willikers
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Maybe there's another idea for your situation.
How about an airgun?
Statistics suggest that most confrontations end with the presentation of a gun.
In a low light situation, a realistic looking airgun might be quite a dissuader.
Better, yet, it might actually do the real job of running the guy off in a hail of pellets.
All without the risks of an actual firearm.
Firearms safety concerns still apply of course.
Just a thought.
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Last edited by g.willikers; May 14, 2016 at 07:49 AM.
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Old May 14, 2016, 02:27 PM   #29
Lohman446
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Quote:
Maybe there's another idea for your situation.
How about an airgun?
Statistics suggest that most confrontations end with the presentation of a gun.
In a low light situation, a realistic looking airgun might be quite a dissuader.
Better, yet, it might actually do the real job of running the guy off in a hail of pellets.
All without the risks of an actual firearm.
Firearms safety concerns still apply of course.
Just a thought.
No. You escalate the situation without actually escalating the level of force you can bring to it. If you are going to present a firearm and hope not to use it at least understand it is a hope and do not bind your ability by presenting one that is unloaded or not real.
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Old May 14, 2016, 04:36 PM   #30
g.willikers
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We're talking dire straights here, without being able to use the ideal weapon, under the circumstances.
It's been established that a firearm is out of the question.
And if there's an intruder in your house, the situation has already been escalated.

Sometimes you gotta' go with the odds, and the odds say the presence of a deadly weapon, or what appears to be, causes a cease of activities most of the time.
But whatever saves the day, conventional or not.
I know an older lady who would never carry a gun, but instead has a small air horn in her purse.
At close range that thing is nasty and definitely disrupting.

People aren't deprived of defensive tools just because they can't use a firearm.
There's lots of choices that wouldn't put innocents at risk.
Clubs, swords, all kinds of old fashioned stuff that have worked for centuries.

I still like the airgun in this particular situation.
It looks the part and to some degree can be effective.
You really do not want to get hit with a herd of lead pellets at 450 f/s.
(By gawd they can put your eye out - and some holes in other uncomfortable places, too.)
And they're not likely to get loose out into the world, either.
But like I said, it's just a thought.
You won't hurt my feelings by rejecting it.

Personally, if all I had to defend us was my trusty and very accurate pellet gun, I wouldn't feel defenseless.
After all, there's truth to the old adage, "The weapon is the least of it."
Ranks right up there with "I am the weapon, the gun is the tool."
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Old May 14, 2016, 05:30 PM   #31
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I'm going to toss out from a momma bear's way of thinking in this scenario. You've been given good suggestions to implement already, but how about thinking outside the box with a dry chemical fire extinguisher.
5-10lbs would be sufficient enough. It will shoot a high stream of thick powder that can cover a larger area, even if more than one BG, and also the powder can slow them down enough for you and your family to get out or even potentially stop them altogether.
You get wider spray coverage than with pepper spray and you don't have to worry about your aim or what is beyond your target as with a firearm.
Just a thought for another layer of defense.
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Old May 14, 2016, 05:34 PM   #32
g.willikers
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Another good tool when a gun isn't appropriate.
I've used it on those all night barking frogs around here.
Shut them right up for nearly a week.
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Last edited by g.willikers; May 14, 2016 at 05:44 PM.
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Old May 14, 2016, 08:43 PM   #33
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grated ( security) storm doors
Door Devil Door Plate ( front and back door)
Bulldog bar (back door)

Add bookcases to the wall along the childs room to help shield them in the event a weapon is fired inside.

Make sure front and back doors can be easily observed by neighbors and passerbys. Use timed lights to give the appearance of someone always being home.

Put 3 pair of very large work boots on the porch to give the appearance of several very large men occupying the home.

Get a large dog. If you don't want a dog, get a large dog house and dog bowl anyway and place it out back where it can been seen.

Storm windows ( the more glass the better)

Extra vehicle in the drive way.. running or not ( movie it around)
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Old May 14, 2016, 08:45 PM   #34
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In case you're still considering a firearm and bullets, have you considered frangible bullets? A few months ago I loaded up some frangible .223 rem (Barnes Varmint Grenade) for a prairie dog hunt and those p-dogs I center-hit showed a ragged entrance wound but no exit wounds at all. The skin near the entrance wound looked a bit like the animal had been attacked by a weed whacker, and the wound itself appeared pretty shallow.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you use an AR for your HD situation, but I do know that I've seen frangible bullets at Sportsman's Warehouse recently in 9mm and 40 S&W. I believe they're supposed to be target ammo, but for your situation, IF they prove at least as accurate as standard SD ammo, they might be your only real option.

Of course, I'd put a box through some extensive testing before trusting them for HD duty . . .
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Old May 17, 2016, 11:16 AM   #35
shafter
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Quote:
Maybe there's another idea for your situation.
How about an airgun?
Statistics suggest that most confrontations end with the presentation of a gun.
In a low light situation, a realistic looking airgun might be quite a dissuader.
Better, yet, it might actually do the real job of running the guy off in a hail of pellets.
All without the risks of an actual firearm.
Firearms safety concerns still apply of course.
Just a thought.
This is a worse idea than bringing a knife to a gunfight.
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Old May 17, 2016, 01:27 PM   #36
kilimanjaro
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Dogs are great, but you need to spend your money on a different place to live. Your location and structure are untenable as far as being desirable places to raise a family. A dog large enough to keep someone at bay is expensive, to the tune of $100 a month for food and vet bills. Put your initial expense money towards motion sensors, and take them with you when you leave. Once you have those, bank your money until you can afford to move to a better location.

Don't bother with ARs, shotguns, flashlights on rails, or any other gun stuff beyond the pistol you already have. Put your money into another home, not this one. That is the best home defense plan you can get.
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Old May 17, 2016, 02:42 PM   #37
g.willikers
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Quote:
This is a worse idea than bringing a knife to a gunfight.
You must not know any knife fighters.
Hope you never have to meet one either, gun or no gun.
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Old May 17, 2016, 03:03 PM   #38
str8tshot
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I love the idea of a living in Mayberry! A small town (without the meth fueled crazies) is a great way to grow up. I would not agree that you are facing an uphill battle. You are thinking about what you can do, and making preparations to defend your loved ones SHOULD the need arise.

Many weapons will end a fight. I like the idea of using the cane to bring a person down to the ground, then beat them senseless.

The air gun idea got me thinking of a previous idea I had regarding less than lethal force. Paintball markers are relatively inexpensive and can put out a barrage of paint balls at a fairly high velocity. Getting hit with 10 of 15 paint balls in the face will make a person flinch and seek cover; then you can beat the snot out of them with your cane until they stop being a threat. Much better than the "knife to gunfight" scenario. Though the sword idea is also a great repellent to violent action.
Caution: Civil action may follow a paint ball defense if the person is permanently disabled, even in a SYG state.
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Old May 17, 2016, 06:08 PM   #39
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Effective guard dogs, especially in a relatively densely populated area can be more trouble than they're worth. It takes a special dog to know who to bite, and who is just delivering the mail or showing up to play with one of your kids. And a dog that doesn't know when it really needs to bark will bark endlessly, that can actually lower your situational awareness. And also alienate neighbors. You can't just drive up to the local pound and expect to drive away with a dog that won't get you sued or make life more difficult. Especially if you don't really want a dog.


Check out battery powered LED motion detector lights. Cheap and easy to install. The battery life is pretty good, and checking it requires frequent evening walks around the perimeter. Taking those walks regularly is a great way to stay aware and continually make evaluations and changes.
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Old May 17, 2016, 06:15 PM   #40
Fade2Grey
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Your location and structure are untenable as far as being desirable places to raise a family.
I appreciate your input. Its all relative. My location and structure is very desirable, to me. It sure beats being homeless, still. I've had a series of unfortunate events regarding my immediate family's physical and mental health that had set me back, financially, trying to care for them. In spite of my strife, I am proud to have the ability to provide what I do for my fiance and her girls. The environment her and I have created for those girls is loving, nurturing, and fruitful; albeit financially modest. Raising a family, in my very amateur opinion, consists of a lot more than the monetary value of ones dwelling.

My current net income is $1,200/month. My financial priorities are strictly managed. However, with nothing but time, it can be fun to fantasize about the possibilities, once expendable income does become available. The two firearms I do own were inherited when my father passed. I budget my Ramen consumption. It will take me a month to gain the expendable $30 for two floodlights. But, yes, when I am able to save for a desirable ability to raise a family, I will take the lights with me.

Have a blessed day.
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Old May 17, 2016, 06:32 PM   #41
Fade2Grey
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Quote:
This is a worse idea than bringing a knife to a gunfight.
I'm new to this forum stuff, but, I believe the options other than firearms that were mentioned were intended for use against a threat without a firearm. Suggested as another layer to a plan.

Much like the fire extinguisher idea, it is an inexpensive option for a less lethal response that thinks outside the box. I don't agree that it was a bad idea.

I do believe bringing a knife to a gunfight is a bad idea, for me. I can't close that 21' gap as quickly as I used to. I would still be very scared for my life if I was attacked with a knife, even if armed with a firearm.

I don't like pain. It hurts me. - Bugs Bunny
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Old May 17, 2016, 06:47 PM   #42
Mainah
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Try making your place the least criminal friendly in the neighborhood. Maybe replace the no trespassing signs with signs that describe video surveillance. You can buy fake surveillance cameras at Radio Shack.

Are you connected with a local Veterans Center? They can provide many types of support.
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Old May 17, 2016, 06:55 PM   #43
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Video surveillance signs is a great idea! I can't believe I haven't thought of something so obvious! Thank you!

For giggles: cardboard silhouette cutouts on a train set in front of the windows seemed to work for the kid in the home alone movie. Lol

PM sent about vet center.
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Old May 19, 2016, 10:37 AM   #44
MislMan
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Look around outside your house. Do what you can to make things less friendly for thieves. I don't think most home invaders are banging down trailer doors with people inside. Leave a front light turned on on the porch, eleminate dark areas that a thief can hide in, low bushes in front of windows, use rubber wedge style stopper inside front door as this should stop/ slow them down while making a racket. I keep a set of electronic hearing protector on my bedside table with a light and pistol. I wear hearing aids but if I hear a noise outside at night I put on the protectors and turn up the volume, only take a second or two. I use Howard Leight protectors that cost about $35 on sale, NRR rating of 23db but increase conversation volume by 4x. I also keep aerosol powered boat horns in several rooms. They are louder than bejesus and will wake the dead (and neighbors) at 2 AM for sure. Kids could signal if they can't scream or call out. At the front door I drilled a hole into the floor and have a peice of wood block with a bolt in it that drops into the hole at night. This allows the door to open a couple of inches if desired but nobody will slam it open into my/wife's face. Also handy if the girls happen to open the door if someone knocks.
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Old May 19, 2016, 11:12 AM   #45
g.willikers
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As for the guard dog, there's no need for an actual dog.
They're more hassle than kids.
Just get a recording of a big dog, complete with growling and barking that activates when the place is disturbed.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
It's a bad idea to bring a fake dog to a gunfight.
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Old May 19, 2016, 02:17 PM   #46
str8tshot
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I don't know if anyone has suggested plant barriers and funneling traffic to the areas you can secure, but that might be an affordable solution. I have planted century plants in front of windows in the past. The down side is cleaning the windows is more challenging.
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Old May 20, 2016, 09:21 PM   #47
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I love those electronic ear pro things. Before I got the VA to get me hearing aides I wore them around the house so my better half didn't have to keep scrwing at me. They can get tunes plugged into them too. I like the idea of keeping them handy for intruders. Blocking loud shots, they'd help keep me coherent too, in a situation where I'd have to discharge the firearm inside my Pepsi can house. Great idea, thank you!

A fake dog would be neat. In addition to the video surveillance signs, I may go with beware of dog. Don't know if I'm talented enough with electronics to hook up a noise maker though.

I have always like holly bushes. I am on the fence about making permanent improvements to the place. I rent, and already feel taken advantage of by the landlord. (They haven't called back in 4 months, our front yard is flooded from our septic tank.)
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Old May 20, 2016, 09:29 PM   #48
johnwilliamson062
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They haven't called back in 4 months, our front yard is flooded from our septic tank
I'm not a doctor or a statistician, but I have played both in third world countries when no real ones were available.
I'd have to guess the septic tank flood poses a great many more health risks than the remote possibility of an armed intruder.
There are usually legal resources available to help those unable to afford a lawyer through the process of formally filing a complaint with a land lord, diverting payments to escrow until repairs are made, and reducing rent for the period of time it is in disrepair.
I've not dealt with the process as a renter or as a landlord, but I am acquainted with landlords who have. Funny how a rent reduction can motivate a lazy landlord to put repairs to the top of the "to do" list.
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Old May 22, 2016, 10:24 AM   #49
Handloader109
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I'd invest first in doorstops that I could take with me when you move. And maybe in a couple of heavier door chains. Make the back door impenetrable at night. Or at least very difficult to enter. Maybe even table blocking. Do as much to the front door also. I too would depend on the handgun bf the shotgun. Keep it on your person or locked up. Make it a habit. I would consider the ex to be the likely intruder to a 90% probability. Shows up drunk and trying to take the kids and beat the [email protected] out of the ex. Your best bet is to keep him out of the home until the cops can get there. Just make sure that she won't open the door to him without you being there for any reason.... Just my take on things. Domestic is way more likely than random intruder
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Old May 22, 2016, 12:26 PM   #50
kilimanjaro
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You make $1200 a month and have two firearms now. You certainly don't need to purchase another one, and a large dog will eat you out of house and home.

Deadbolts and a couple of bright porch lights will be adequate. You can bankrupt yourself trying to retort to scenario after scenario.

That septic tank is a health concern. Do tell the landlord to pump it and inspect it, and get the results of the inspection, he may need to replace the field.
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