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Old April 20, 2016, 06:44 AM   #1
AzShooter
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You can't miss fast enough

Lesson learned from last match. As much as I tried to make my hits I was in warp mode trying to improve my scores. That backfired and I increased my total time by about 20 seconds.

Now I'm starting to think like I use to. I've got to make the shots count and will try to go slow enough to make each hit on target with just one shot. Even at a slower pace I will end up faster than having to make multiple follow-up shots.

I had too many moon clips with 7 and 8 shots fired. I did better years ago with my 6 shot 625. At least I never had to make a reload under time.

New goal with my training is to keep all shots in the black of a 25 yard bullseye target. Take my time and don't rush a thing. I've got a good revolver with a 5 lb double action and it groups extremely tight, under and inch at 25 yards from a bench.

Aim for the center and not the whole target. Make sure I see my sights on the target instead of point shooting the close ones. Each shot is important and must be a hit.

With this new mantra I hope to improve some more.
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Old April 20, 2016, 07:08 AM   #2
45Gunner
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Early in my shooting career, I learned that a slow hit is much better than a fast miss.

I go to Front Sight at least once a year to reinforce this. My goal has always been accuracy and speed but I find there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to speed.

I recently discovered a range within a 40 minute drive of where I live that has computer generated virtual targets. One uses their own gun and live ammo. Great practice as some of the programs give one the opportunity to develop speed with accuracy while factoring in the shoot, no shoot decision making.
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:07 AM   #3
g.willikers
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"Shoot slow and accurate, real fast?"
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:08 AM   #4
9x45
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Actually in USPSA, scoring is based hit factor, which is points earned divided by time spent shooting, so yes, you can miss and still win, but just do it quickly, very quickly. It also applies to straight time scoring, so if your times are high, you are not only shooting slow but missing slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdkW...e5XyYM46Ha7Z3G
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:22 AM   #5
g.willikers
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Hey, go faster.
Each individual shot could be heard.
And you didn't run right on past any of them.
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Old April 20, 2016, 10:04 AM   #6
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I don't shoot competition, so I can't really speak to scoring well in that arena. I do know that for me there is a balance between speed and accuracy that isn't always easy to find. My tendency is to spend too much time getting tight groups instead of just hitting the target zone. I continue to work on grip and stance, knowing that good technique is what enables fast and accurate shooting. Good luck.
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Old April 20, 2016, 11:10 AM   #7
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In runNgun games, there's an optimum balance of speed and accuracy. Just where on the absolute speed curve that balance lies is different for every shooter, but if you shoot a match clean, you could've/should've gone faster. The wheels fall off very quickly once you go beyond that optimum, though.

Beyond shooting, though, stage planning and efficient movement is a big part of your result. Shoot slow & move fast isn't a bad approach - much better than what many do: Shoot too fast and move too slow.

Revolvers present their own challenges. For one thing, wheelgunners live & die by their reload. Their game is also less forgiving when their fundamentals are weak. And they have to avoid the "unforced errors" others seem to simply accept. In case you're interested, below's an excerpt from some thoughts I once offered on being competitive with a revolver. You'll note I didn't mention shooting fast (or slow).

From Winning With a Revolver:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBorland
First, some rules for revolver shooting I've found to be important:
1. Get your hits, especially steel and head shots. Matter of fact, the 1st Commandment of revolver shooting is "Thou shalt not miss steel!". Relative to your raw time, time added from Points Down should be in the 10% range. Make sure your shots before and after your reload are solid.

2. Be technically perfect - no penalties, and no bobbled reloads. Avoid PEs by knowing the rules beforehand, and/or asking for clarification during the stage brief. Visualize yourself running the stage, paying attention to the details - see your foot planted inside cover, hear the cylinder closing after a reload before moving from a position of cover, etc. The other penalties (e.g. HNT, FN) are accuracy-based, and if you're following the 10% rule, it shouldn't be

3. Your stuff's gotta run 100% reliably - no light strikes, no short stroked triggers, no high primers, no sluggish reloads from grungy chambers, no stubborn or puking speedloaders. No bent moonclips. No exceptions or excuses.

4. Your revolver doesn't make you any different than anyone else. This may be the most important point on this list. The Great Revolver Narrative holds that everything is oh so hard with a revolver. Believe this, even subconsciously, and you've defeated yourself before even coming to the line because you've given yourself permission to underperform. One can be competitive with a revolver, at least at local-level IDPA matches, where the round count's not really high enough to really matter all that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzShooter
New goal with my training is to keep all shots in the black of a 25 yard bullseye target.
When I was competing regularly, I'd include pure accuracy shooting as part of my practice session. But, I'd move on and work on speed as well. Speed (with accuracy) won't come on it's own. Slow isn't fast - it's slow. To go fast, you've got to practice going fast. You're going to make some bad shots, but you need to train your brain to pick up the rapid visual cues you need. That won't happen shooting slow-fire cloverleafs.

Last edited by MrBorland; April 20, 2016 at 11:17 AM.
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Old April 20, 2016, 11:23 AM   #8
g.willikers
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There's more to doing well at USPSA and IDPA games than just the shooting.
Lots more stuff requires practice, too.
For example, moving from one place to another quickly and efficiently.
There's probably more lost time from that than from the shooting part.
Just a thought.
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Old April 20, 2016, 08:48 PM   #9
9x45
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Shooting games are just that, games, timed and scored, don't mix tactics and training with games. The faster you go in the games, even with misses, the better yo do.... Typically you want to run at about 85-90%, then crank it to 95% plus.
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:06 PM   #10
Radny97
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My match on Saturday a guy with a revolver took second place overall, and we had some past state champions at that match.
I have found that smooth is fast. Economy of movement, not necessarily rushed movement, is the fastest.
Good points by Mr Borland.
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:44 PM   #11
Deaf Smith
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"Speed is fine, accuracy is final."

"Take your time, fast."

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"

“Don’t shoot fast, shoot good.”

"Aim small, miss small"

“The two most important rules in a gunfight are- always cheat and always win.”

"Remember, there is ALWAYS somebody faster….but age and treachery beat youth and vigor 9 out of 10 times!"

"A miss is always a miss. You need to be fast and accurate."

Diligentia.... Vis... Celeritas...

but.... keep in mind...


"It's the code of the west
you must honor your neighbor
the code of the west
to your own self be true
the code of the west
you must do unto others
do unto others before they do it unto you"*

In other words, draw first!


*Apropos to Roger Miller and 'Water Hole Number 3".

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Old April 21, 2016, 09:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
USPSA, scoring is based hit factor, which is points earned divided by time spent shooting, so yes, you can miss and still win
Yeah that works well in the real world, as reported a while back (I think in NYC) where the police fired 45 rounds to hit the bandit once in the arm. But hey, they won, the did get the bad guy.

Problem being where did those other 44 rounds go?

I guess I'll never be a top USPSA shooter, I just cant justify seeing how fast I can miss.

In USPSA matches I do quite well with the hit factor but because I don't have fast misses I'm come in the middle of the pack.

But that's OK, I found out I'm in the "Super Senior" class, I can win there, we're all slow.

But I'm not gonna sacrifice hits so I can move up on the leader board. If I want to win something I'll stick to the CMP Vintage Sniper match, where its about fundamentals.

I'll keep shooting USPSA, I think its good training, but I'll train for faster hits, not seeing how many and how fast I can put bullets down range hoping I might get a hit along the way.

I guess its the "COP" in me, I cant see putting the citizen I was suppose to protect, in more danger from me then the bandit.
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Old April 21, 2016, 10:01 AM   #13
g.willikers
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^^^^^
Yessir,
My goal is to never go faster than I can get all A hits, either one.
Anything less just isn't satisfactory.
All practice is toward that, too.
The match winners don't seem to stray too far from that, either.
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Old April 21, 2016, 10:15 AM   #14
MrBorland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9x45
The faster you go in the games, even with misses, the better yo do....
That may be true in USPSA (and then really only at the higher levels, methinks), but it ain't so in other games, such as IDPA, ICORE, Steel. The penalties in those games are simply too high to make running beyond your control a viable strategy for doing well.
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Old April 21, 2016, 12:45 PM   #15
9x45
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Kraig, I never said USPSA was the real world, it's not. The total rounds burned during the terrorist shootout was over 380 by the 23 responding San Bernardino Sheriff/Redlands PD officers. Don't know the number of hits, but I can find out from my Lt. buddy is currently assigned as Coroner.

Games are all speed based, whether hit factor or straight time. The real problem is most shooters are afraid to crank it on. You can't shoot beyond your speed, but you need to at least get there. AZshooter, you didn't say what match you were in, but I would first look at your split times, especially if it was Steel Challenge, where there is no movement.

By the way the steepest penalty is in USPSA/IPSC. Walk by a target, you loose the 10 points you could have earned, plus one 10 point procedural for failure to engage, plus 2 mikes at 10 points each. That's 40 points down for just one target. IDPA/Steel Challenge and ICORE are not that brutal.
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Old April 21, 2016, 02:11 PM   #16
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Sorry, games or not, I don't care to see how many fast misses I can get.

All shooting, games or not, teaches, or re-enforces habits. Habits can be good or bad. The brain doesn't know the difference between good or bad habits, it allows you to preform a task (habit) without thinking, or while under pressure.

I don't want to practice MISSING, I don't care about the overall scores when I shoot USPSA, I only pay attention the hit factor. I don't do too bad there.

But to each his own.

Quote:
The total rounds burned during the terrorist shootout was over 380 by the 23 responding San Bernardino Sheriff/Redlands PD officers.
Kind of my point. If I remember right there wasn't that many hits. Where did all the other rounds.

Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to shoot USPSA.
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Old April 21, 2016, 02:37 PM   #17
g.willikers
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A smaller example is what happened in our own neighborhood.
Four officers in two cars corralled a wanted felon in a gas station, in the wee hours, well after business hours.
The station was in a small shopping center, with brick apartments up and down the street, including right next store.
Homes were just across the street.
Not to mention the gasoline pump equipment.
And a large public park across the other street, often used by folks walking their dogs late at night.

Gunfire was exchanged, with something like two dozen rounds fired by the police and a few by the felon- all from about a car lengths distance.
There was one wounding hit on the felon, none fortunately on anyone else.
No telling where the misses went.

Even though the situation turned out ok, it was not a comforting outcome.
Our second story bedroom was well withing pistol range.
I almost felt like offering free shooting instruction to the local cops.
Doubt if they would have appreciated it, though.
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Old April 21, 2016, 03:23 PM   #18
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It's important to remember that it is possible to be too accurate in a gunfight. If you putting all of your shots in the same hole you're going too slow. If you're going outside of center mass you're going too fast.

A balance of speed and accuracy is best. I'm willing to sacrifice accuracy for speed but not to the extent that my shots aren't effective.
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Old April 21, 2016, 04:36 PM   #19
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Exactly this^^^

Balance speed and accuracy for the shot at hand...
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Old April 21, 2016, 05:45 PM   #20
9x45
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Yes, the games are all about the illusive balance of speed and points, that is the prize. So this is usually the point where competition shooters and tactical trainers get cross threaded. The game is just the game, and if you are serious about the game, then you are a gamer and want to win and want to move up in class. But don't justify shooting slow for good hits because that's not they taught you at FrontSight, or what you believe the real world is, or what happens in cop shootings, those are not games. This is a game, and slow is just slow.

Example: 20 eight inch plates at 12 yards, different heights, in a semi circle. From hands at sides, engage from within shooting box. Now lets say you shot that same stage 2 weeks ago and ran 38 seconds because you missed allot. So your thinking is you need to slow down, make your hits, therefore slow is smooth, smooth is accurate, and accurate is fast. Ok, typically a D class strategy.

Ok, so make a deliberate conservative run at that stage, say 1.3 second splits and a 2.4 to first shot, no mikes, for a 28.4 second run. Pretty good improvement, right? Ok, now your slow/smooth/accurate/fast thing has proved to work for you. Now you remember some guy beat you at 20 seconds and change 2 weeks ago, so speed up a tiny bit. 1.9 draw and 1 second splits, but, 1 mikes, so your at about 22.9, ok, had a mike, now you are thinking to slow down a touch more. Maybe go for a 25 run.

See what has happened is you are now afraid to put the hammer down and go faster. In this scenario it's only splits that count, and a bit of draw. So for example, I run this same stage, with a 1.1 draw, and 4 mikes, but am going at .3 splits, a little slow and I clock an 8.3. Crap! Course those misses only took 1.2 seconds, meaning I should have clocked a 7.1 clean. Now I'm pissed, ok, next run, not for score, I step on it, take it up to .26 splits, 5 mikes, and a 1.0 draw, for a 7.5 run, not bad, in USPSA scoring a HF of 13.3. One more run before the next squad arrives,at man on fire speed, after all, it's not for score anyway, so a .85 draw, .22 splits, and only 3 mikes! Now were talking, yea a 5.91 smoking run, 17 HF. Course it was the 3 run and the plates were nice enough to stay in the exact same spot.

Don't be afraid to go fast, it will tell you where your balance is.

By the way, I mostly shoot with cops, who also happen to be USPSA Masters and Grand Master, and have won several Level II matches and the Nationals.

Overheard at a local match, GM talking to newbie (maybe a dozen matches in), "Why don't you shoot faster? You have more than enough accuracy" Newbie, 'I'm afraid to miss...."
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Old April 21, 2016, 06:15 PM   #21
K_Mac
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Quote:
It's important to remember that it is possible to be too accurate in a gunfight. If you putting all of your shots in the same hole you're going too slow. If you're going outside of center mass you're going too fast.
I completely agree. I value accuracy highly and have had to work hard learn that combat accuracy does not require very small groups. Center mass is good enough if delivered quickly. The reason most of us don't shoot fast very well is we just don't do it, including cops. It is not a skill to be learned in a gun fight.
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Old April 21, 2016, 08:59 PM   #22
9x45
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yup. nuts to neck, what the heck, faster is always better. Light them up, perps on bath salts hardly feel 2 shots to the heart. My buddy had to take down a perp, after 7 center of mass hits, with 230gr HPs out of a .45acp, then one to the head.
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Old April 22, 2016, 08:35 AM   #23
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There is a huge difference between putting all the shots in one hole and dumping 44 rounds down the street, one hitting the bandit in the arm and the other 43 going who knows where, putting the public in danger.
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Old April 22, 2016, 09:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
I completely agree. I value accuracy highly and have had to work hard learn that combat accuracy does not require very small groups. Center mass is good enough if delivered quickly. The reason most of us don't shoot fast very well is we just don't do it, including cops. It is not a skill to be learned in a gun fight.
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I agree. Most seem to be fixated on shooting little groups and not looking at things realistically. Its not hard to shoot well quickly, but you dont learn to do it, by trying to shoot bug holes, slow fire.

Im not disparaging shooting bug holes either.

Quote:
There is a huge difference between putting all the shots in one hole and dumping 44 rounds down the street, one hitting the bandit in the arm and the other 43 going who knows where, putting the public in danger.
True, but why is it when we hear of it, its usually the cops that are doing the dumping and having a terrible hit to miss ratio?

That incident in NYC that got a bunch (If I remember right, it was 9) of bystanders fired up, comes to mind most recently. The bad guy fired fewer rounds, and actually had a better hit record. At least he hit who he was shooting at.

There is a difference between spraying and praying, and shooting quickly too. Just because youre shooting fast, doesnt mean its the former. Then theres always knowing when to speed up and slow down too. But again, you only learn that with practice, and you dont get that, from just working on basic type target shooting.
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Old April 22, 2016, 09:17 AM   #25
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Kraigwy said "I don't want to practice MISSING, I don't care about the overall scores".........

I could not agree more.


I shoot several times a week and some weeks I shoot every day. As a gunsmith you would expect that.
I don't shoot in competition, but I have a bit in the past.

But when I was in my late teens, 20s and early 30s I "played' for real and I can tell you that only hits count. Making hits before an enemy does is what is important.

We all love to shoot groups to test our skills and to test ammo and guns, but in the real world of hunting or fighting it never happens. Even in those times when we fire more than one shot we are shooting for effect, not for groups.

Having seen many men shot with full-auto weapons, (many of those weapons being belt fed) I can tell you even they did not have a "group" on their bodies.

Slow down enough to make good hits! Nothing else really matters.
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