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Old April 10, 2016, 07:32 AM   #26
AK103K
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Hey, as someone who used to post here once said...."The scenario you get, isnt likely going to be the scenario you always win in your mind".

I often wonder if not practicing for things not likely (according to the usually touted statistics) to be encountered, isnt just an excuse for not practicing for something, one isnt good at. Which is the whole point of practice anyway, isnt it? To get better at things youre weak and/or lacking in.

Close range, long range, it really doesn't matter, most I see and know, dont practice the least bit realistically anyway, and many dont carry a realistic gun to boot. I guess everything likely to be encountered that needs solved, can be done with an LCP, a 5 shot J frame, or a NAA .22, so why bother with anything other than slow fire at a static 25 yard bullseye target at 7 yards in getting ready for it?

If you'd like some good/alternative reading/discussion on things like this, wander on over to Gabe Suarez's "Warrior Talk". They arent afraid to assess and address issues that tend to be taboo or looked down upon here, and discuss it frankly, and openly. Politically Correct they aint, and its very refreshing.
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Old April 10, 2016, 07:39 AM   #27
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I shoot at 25 and 50 with my CCW guns. Not that I expect to ever get in a long range gunfight (or any gunfight for that matter) but really to build confidence and refine skills.

At longer ranges your errors are magnified to the point you can really see them. Same reason I shoot 90-95 yards with a bow. Get good far and close is easy.

Shoot 50, both weaver and bulseye (One handed)
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Old April 10, 2016, 07:58 AM   #28
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^^This. Took a class last week and the instructor said pretty much this. We started at 33 feet.
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Old April 10, 2016, 08:02 AM   #29
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As an added note:
A confrontation between a mad rifleman, (who was shooting up a base hospital), and a very brave military policeman ended well with two accurately placed pistol shots - from 75 yards.
The same distance shot that saved Bill Hickok's young life and allowed him to live to be a legend.
Disregarding, of course, the shot that ended that life was fired from mere inches away.
The point being there's no way to know what level of skill will be needed, and the better prepared we are the more likely we are to succeed.
True for everything in life, come to think.
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Old April 10, 2016, 09:09 AM   #30
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The advisability of taking a 50-75 yard shot is decided in the split seconds before doing it. Having that ability takes nothing away from your CQB skills.
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Old April 10, 2016, 10:38 AM   #31
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AK you make a valid point that if I am in a situation requiring long-range firepower while carrying my LCP I will be at a disadvantage. You are also right that carrying a concealed weapon requires us to have the training to be proficient with our weapon and understand our responsibilities and limitations in a self-defense situation.

It is in defining what those responsibilities and limitations are that thinking people can disagree. Once I get past the superior and condescending tone of your words, I understand that you take your responsibility to defend yourself and others seriously. I respect that and think most here do. Your judgement of those of us who advocate extreme caution before jumping into a gunfight is unfair in my opinion. Most of us take our moral, and ethical responsibilities very seriously. We also understand that as civilians we have legal and tactical limitations that make being a heroic public defender more complicated than you are willing to concede.
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Old April 10, 2016, 10:46 AM   #32
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Guys, I carry a 642 or an LC9, 50 yards ain't gonna happen. I do practice 25 yd body shots tho. Most practice is 5 to 15 yds. If youare 50yds away you should be able to escape.
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Old April 10, 2016, 11:24 AM   #33
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I think the last time I qualed at 50 yards was with a colt 45 back in 1979. The results for all of us were pretty bad. Of course the army qualified the MP's just once a year back then. I would expect today they have better everything going for them.
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Old April 10, 2016, 12:10 PM   #34
AK103K
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Quote:
We also understand that as civilians we have legal and tactical limitations that make being a heroic public defender more complicated than you are willing to concede.
Contrary to what you may think, I in no way want to be the "heroic public defender". Farther from it than you could ever imagine. Im simply saying, that you may be called on to do so, whether you like it or not. Sometimes, as much as you hate it, and know youll probably regret it, you just have to cowboy up.

Of course, if youre of the opinion that youre not capable, or limited in doing so, by all means, do what you think right.

Im not trying to be superior and condescending in tone either, and if you take it that way, I suppose that just is what it is. I tend to be more direct or blunt than PC. It seems to me too, that many of the conversations here become limited, because of the PC (and mimicking) attitude many seem to have, and especially if anything perceived as controversial is brought up. For some reason, it appears longer range shooting falls into that group.

I do get annoyed when Im told I have to follow someone elses ROE, especially when they choose to limit themselves in their thinking, equipment, and skills, and somehow thats supposed to attach itself to me. I do take my responsibilities very seriously, and try to be as close to the top of my game as possible. Always have. I would think that would be a goal for anyone carrying a gun on a daily basis, but I do know thats not always the case. For many, just having it seems to be all it takes. First rule is to have a gun, right? Thats a scary thought sometimes.

Dont take my tone wrong, if you dont practice long range shooting, arent capable of it, and then proclaim its irresponsible to do so, simply because its out of your skill set. Same goes for close range dynamic shooting, or anything in between for that matter. Dont take offense if I bring it up, and it touches a nerve. Im simply pointing out that if its an issue, its something to work on and strive to achieve.

Im also in no way advocating doing anything, just because you can. Every situation is its own critter and gets its own response. But...., in the circumstance where you are capable and do have the means, I do believe you do have a responsibility to act.
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Old April 10, 2016, 12:50 PM   #35
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Most self-defense shots are very short. Some are longer.

If you want to have a chance of making the longer ones you'd better practice for them.

If you want to have a good chance of making the very short ones, you'd better practice for them too. I've seen video of multiple shooters mixing things up at arm's length ranges and no one getting hit.
Quote:
... you may be called on to do so, whether you like it or not...
It is remotely possible that one might be put into a true self-defense situation that would require engaging the attacker with a pistol out past 20-25 yards where escape would not be possible, but that's getting into an astronomically unlikely situation.

LE and Military might be called upon to make shots like that to neutralize an active threat since they don't have the luxury of escape. But it's more than just quite unlikely that someone would actually be forced to take a shot like that in self-defense.
Quote:
But...., in the circumstance where you are capable and do have the means, I do believe you do have a responsibility to act.
Outside of LE and military, any such "responsibility" would be self-imposed. Some people might feel the self-imposed duty so strongly that they don't believe it is actually self-imposed, but that doesn't change the facts.

And people on both sides (and in the middle) of that particular argument will most certainly be able to rationalize whatever level of "responsibility" they choose to self-impose. That makes a debate about that particular topic useless. More to the point, because it is about beliefs and moral codes and personal feelings, it's going to be difficult if not impossible to discuss it without both sides making statements that are likely to be taken as insulting by those with a different viewpoint.

So, feel free to continue discussing the tactics and training aspects of long/short shots; but for the sake of everyone involved, that's the end of the discussion about what level of "responsibility" everyone should or shouldn't feel and why.
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Old April 10, 2016, 01:10 PM   #36
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My thoughts on running away... If you stand still, you are kind of hard to see, the minute you start to run! You call attention to your self, you will normally run in a straight line, not good, 16 rounds of 9mm, gives a lot of chances to get nailed. A 147g WW Ranger T through your heel, for instance, puts you down, crippled.

Marksmanship, 50m full sized man, but how about the toe of a sneaker, sticking out from behind a dumpster? at 20m? Aim 4" in front of it!
When he is flopping on the deck, next shot is a keeper.

You need good sights, nice trigger. This is were the 50 years shooting bull's-eye, pays off.
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Old April 10, 2016, 01:50 PM   #37
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Judging from all the folks at all the matches I've been, not too many people can hit moving targets worth a dang, with pistols or rifles.
Even ones moving in a straight line - laterally and even away, that is.
And that's with nobody shooting back.
So maybe running isn't all that bad an idea.
Might have to dial up the treadmill a couple of notches.
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Old April 10, 2016, 02:45 PM   #38
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g.willikers turning up the treadmill brings up another aspect of preparing for the unexpected in my opinion. Being fit physically also gives us additional options. I think that is an often neglected element that has great impact on our ability to respond to trouble effectively. For the sake of full disclosure, my jeans are a bit snugger than they were last fall.
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Old April 10, 2016, 06:14 PM   #39
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G.W

Most of the IDPA matches I have been to (a lot) the moving targets are not normally moving in any kind of natural way, just gimmicks.

As in flipping from side to side, or dropping down more or less, whereas moving laterally away, they are not changing profile too much, getting smaller?
I can hit coming, or going quite well.

The latest Police Shooting in Gainsville FL. Bullets in walls, through windows, into furniture, car windows shot out, all three? Officers fired, no verbal communications at all.

No one was taught combat breathing (to drop BP Adrenalin) one of my favorite, and cheap, marksmanship drills, 2" black spots, on cardboard at 5 or 7m, with duty pistol. Straight from holster.
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Old April 10, 2016, 07:55 PM   #40
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The way things are in the world today with terrorism, etc....I agree that it is a good idea to be able to shoot at different distances to handle different scenarios which are likely to occur. More power to those who can hit those 50 yd and 75 yd shots. Practice makes perfect.
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Old April 10, 2016, 11:24 PM   #41
garryc
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Quote:
Guys, I carry a 642 or an LC9, 50 yards ain't gonna happen. I do practice 25 yd body shots tho. Most practice is 5 to 15 yds. If youare 50yds away you should be able to escape.
I shoot my Shield and my Sp101 2" at 50 yards. Actually I do pretty well at it. Lets understand that I don't care if I hit the point of aim, just that they are close together on paper. I use the same sight picture as I do close. Consistent sight alignment and trigger squeeze is the point. I am not shooting a silhouette at that range, just a bullseye target.

You are correct, 50 yards is beat feet range 99.5% of the time.
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Old April 11, 2016, 04:10 AM   #42
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The best argument for shooting at 25+ yards is that it shows your marksmanship mistakes, which will likely be amplified under pressure, so it is good to sort them out. Even fairly poor shooting looks reasonably tight at 15 feet, but at 25 yards+ if you're making basic mistakes... it'll show very much.

Sure, your snubnose concealed revolver may not be pinpoint accurate, but if you're out of the black at this range, it's you. Shoot (or have someone else shoot) it from a rest to see how well it groups. Isn't it a shame to have a tool then not be able to use it to it's full or near-full potential?

Plus, bullseye is a great sport
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Old April 12, 2016, 02:54 PM   #43
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You never know what your fight will be. These are all "rabbit out of a hat" scenarios to try and justify a scenario that you're creating in your own minds. Not everyone sees it and nothing goes as the movie in your mind shows it going.

This officer took a long distance shot.

There is absolutely no need to hinder yourself or handicap yourself of covering all bases. If you think you won't ever come across this type of situation, good for you. You're probably right. You won't. But why not prepare for it if the need should ever arise? We have health, life, car, and CC insurance for such reasons.

Why are people so hell bent on limiting themselves?

You're supposed to practice and train on things that you aren't good at.

Everything else is just speculation. Justification by generalizing every scenario that was mentioned.

Have a plan. Even if you think you won't use it.... Geez..
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Old April 12, 2016, 03:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
'cause the stats support the idea.
The stats also say that we're unlikely to ever need to use a gun, so perhaps you can ask why he even bothers carrying or owning at all....

The way I see it is if you are capable at 15, 20 or 25 yds, then that can only help with shooting at closer ranges.

Of course, it's all a compromise and there is a reasonable cut-off point. I think that is true of how far you should be able to shoot, how many reloads you carry and even if you decide to carry at all.
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Old April 12, 2016, 04:42 PM   #45
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Most of my training time is focused within 2 - 10 yards, because that is where an attack is most likely to occur.

I spend some time almost every range session on the plausible distances, out to 25 yards.

If I go to the NRA range I can do 50 yards, and if I'm back home I have different spots that lets me attempt 100 and 300 yard shots. The 50 yards might be plausible, and I do shoot at that distance every few months.

The 100+ yards is getting beyond the reasonable, and while I have shot handguns at those distances it's not something I practice with any regularity.
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Old April 12, 2016, 04:44 PM   #46
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i've read 2 theories about why civilian involved shootings mostly happen at 3-5 yards.

1) attackers come upon victims suddenly (situational awareness lacking?)

2) victims wait too long to react and draw their weapon (hesitant to defend themselves with their pistol).

neither of these are good, so i'd practice longer distances.
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Old April 13, 2016, 07:54 AM   #47
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Quote:
i've read 2 theories about why civilian involved shootings mostly happen at 3-5 yards.

1) attackers come upon victims suddenly (situational awareness lacking?)

2) victims wait too long to react and draw their weapon (hesitant to defend themselves with their pistol).

neither of these are good, so i'd practice longer distances.

I think number two has more to do with the perpetrator hiding his weapon until the last minute. We're always taught to keep our weapon hidden until we're in fear for our lives since brandishing is generally a crime.
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Old April 13, 2016, 09:33 AM   #48
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i'm out walking doggie this morning, there are 2 viscous dogs to the north. the barbed wire fence does not stop them. they see us walking on our property, start barking, and proceed to come onto my property, but still a good distance away, and not always visible due to the terrain (hills and valleys), but i can hear them, so i have an idea where they are. doggie wants to walk, so we walk. as we get closer to where they are, i draw my pistol and keep it at low ready, not muzzling doggie or me.

doggie finally decides to head home and we put distance between us and bad dogs.

on my property, drawing my pistol shouldn't be brandishing.

i've previously been attacked by these dogs, and have had to shoot in their direction to chase them off. incidents were reported to animal control. they said that if i have to shoot them, to call them to pick up the bodies. i'd rather not have to kill someone's pet.
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Old April 13, 2016, 10:08 AM   #49
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His first (only?) armed encounter went poorly. He got into a fight with an employee who drew down on him. Having been to all the gun schools, he attempted to disarm the employee who never lost control of his own gun, wrapped up my buddy and picked the gun my my buddy's holster. Fortunately, the employee never fired.
Looks to me like the employee was just demonstrating "who's the boss?". Glad no shots were fired.

With my little S&W 442, I only shoot to 10 yds (and occasionally a bit further for fun). I just don't much like to shoot that little gun. So, yeah, I am working the odds.
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Old April 13, 2016, 11:30 AM   #50
BigJimP
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All of the rhetoric aside on what might happen....

In my view, for Defense, its going to be relatively close ...( so I practice what is most likely ) ....from 3 Feet out to 8 yds mostly .../ that is not to say that I never shoot beyond 8 yds in some tactical drills...but at 15 - 25 yds...even police depts qualifications in my area...tend to be relatively slow fire at those distances like 4 rounds in 10 sec. So its more of a bulls eye qual at that point.

Speed and effective fire - center chest area ...at close in distances is not "bulls eye perfection" but so what ...its about speed and being Tactically accurate ( center chest area - nipple to nipple and about 11" down toward belly button ...

My training standards ( with your carry gun - and from a holster):
a. Draw and Fire 3 shots in under 3 sec...
b. Draw and Fire 4 shots - speed Reload - Fire 4 more shots in 8 sec.

At 15, 20 and 25 yds ...I expand the primary target zone to include the entire silhouette .... with something like Draw and Fire 4 rds in under 10 sec at 15 yds....and draw and fire 4 rds in under 12 sec at 20 and 25 yds.
--------------
With the pressure of "time", I'm always amazed at how many shooters cannot hit a silhouette target at 15 - 25 yds...but they still carry ..??
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