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Old December 21, 2018, 11:02 AM   #51
F. Guffey
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Unclenick
Thanks for getting back , I asked Guff but he didn't answer back , he's getting bumped on and seems to be dueling more . My question to him was when using the go gage for a 308 caliber 1.630 by adding a .002 shim with a stripped bolt , only the housing for better feel . With the shim and gage measuring 1.632 wouldn't that be my chamber measurement from bolt face to shoulder ? For the life of me I can't see how it doesn't . What am I missing . Oh Yes , your graphs are something else . Thanks Again .

Chris
You ask me? and I did not answer?

I said the go gage is a standard, I am the fan of standards. If the bolt closes on a go gage the chamber has .004" clearance if the shooter is using minimum length/full length sized ammo or factor loaded 308W ammo.

You claimed you added a .002" shim to the go gage when checking the length of your chamber. What effect did the .002" feeler gage have on the test?

If you added .002" to the length of the go gage when checking the length of the chamber 'AND' the bolt closed on the .002" spacer and the go gage you have a long chamber. HOW LONG?

ADD the 002" to the length of the go gage, for the 308W that would be .006" clearance when using minimum length/full length sized, factory over the counter ammo.

The difference between a 30/06 chamber in length and the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head is .005. That means when a shooter fires factory, full length sized, minimum length ammo in a go gage length chamber there is .005" clearance between the case head and bolt face or as some insist between the shoulder of the case to the shoulder of the chamber.

Again: I have a 30/06 chamber that has a chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a factory, over the counter, new ammo when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case head. For me that is not a problem, I know how the rifle got that way and I know who 'DID-IT". I also understand the long chamber has .011" clearance when firing minimum length/full length sized ammo. I understand the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject length gage.

Now for the impossible part to understand for most reloaders: All I have to do to form cases for the long chamber is add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head. I use the Remington 280 case; I shim the 30/06 die off the shell holder (making sure the press is not a cam over press) .014". After sizing I remove the case and measure/verify. To most it must seem like magic but when finished I have the magic .002" clearance.

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Old December 21, 2018, 11:16 AM   #52
F. Guffey
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You are making this much harder than it is. All you have to do is adjust your sizing die so that it bumps the shoulder back so that you have the correct amount of case headspace and your bolt just... closes on it. There, I managed to get 2 banned words in 1 sentence.
Sounds great, it would sound greater if the case had head space. And then there is that matter of sticking the head space and the feeler gage in the chamber when closing the bolt. The die, press and shell holder is designed to return the case to minimum length.

Now I am trying to type as slow as this old machine will allow: He has a long chamber; what would I do if I had a long chamber? I would add to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head; SO? I would add a .004: shim between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder when adjusting the case for a long chamber. After making the adjustment I would secure the die to the press with the lock nut.

After making the adjustment I could test by raising the ram and checking the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. AND! This will not work on a cam over press...….because it bumps.

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Old December 21, 2018, 11:17 AM   #53
cw308
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F. Guffey
If the go gage has a measurement on the gage of 1.630 and I added a .002 shim at closed bolt why wouldn't it be 1.632 . Long or short chambers don't bother me , I'll size to fit but when a gage is listed for example 1.630 and chambers Go and you can add a .003 shim and No Go wouldn't the chamber when it chambers with a .002 shim be 1.632 . Seems pretty simple to me .

Chris
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Old December 21, 2018, 11:30 AM   #54
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Ain't that the truth , always trying some new tool or die .

Chris
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Old December 21, 2018, 11:39 AM   #55
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I'm not having a problem with sizing , the problem started when I was explaining how I found chamber measurements , seemed pretty simple to me but it opened a can of worms for some reason . Hay , trouble maker . Bump the shoulder back and headspace , that's as bad as kicking a dog , fighten words . Be Well

Chris
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Old December 21, 2018, 11:50 AM   #56
F. Guffey
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Seems pretty simple to me .
There is something that can be said for 'wringing', I stack a go gage with a .002" shim and get the 'sum of which'.


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The summation of the sequence [1, 2, 4, 2] is an expression whose value is the sum of each of the members of the sequence. In the example, 1 + 2 + 4 + 2 = 9. Because addition is associative, the sum does not depend on how the additions are grouped, for instance (1 + 2) + (4 + 2) and 1 + ((2 + 4) + 2) both have the value 9; therefore, parentheses are usually omitted in repeated additions.
When wringing I verify, for me that is not a problem because I have no hang-ups about datums. What are you missing? To me it looks like no one gets it.

I make gages, that is not a popular thing, You have a go-gage. You do not have a minimum length/full length sized case gage; that is go-gage length less clearance.

And I have asked what is it about the go-gage that causes all the excitement among reloaders. There is the go-gage, there is the no go-gage and another gage referred to as being a field reject length gage. I have a resource person on anything military; he has no fewer than 20 30/06 head space gages. When I have helped him check the length of chambers on his builds I have never used one of his head space gages because I measure the length of the chamber in thousandths. AND! He shoots ammo, not gages. He understands the part about the chamber is .0075" longer than his factory/full length sized ammo from the shoulder of the case to the case head. By design and in the perfect world he should have .005" clearance.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; December 21, 2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old December 21, 2018, 12:01 PM   #57
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Mr. Guffey compared it to a maximum length SAAMI cartridge. Commercially made ammunition is almost all about 0.006" shorter than maximum. The maximum is set by an engineering practice called critical dimensioning. In most mechanisms, a critical dimension is one beyond which the parts cannot be assembled or made to function. A SAAMI maximum rimless bottleneck cartridge dimension from the shoulder datum to the outside of the head is typically longer than the minimum chamber headspace dimension by a few thousandths. It would seem like that would make it impossible to close the bolt or fire the gun, but the maximum diameters for the cartridge are smaller than the minimum diameters of the chamber, so you can force a bolt closed on a minimum chamber with a maximum cartridge and the case will expand to fill the chamber and fire. So the head-to-shoulder length is only at a critical maximum when it is too long even for that forcing to work, as it runs out of diameter to expand into.

All that said, the reason manufactured ammo doesn't use that tight maximum dimension is feed reliability. Having to jam things together is not what you want in a self-loader, in particular, as it will probably fail to feed. But SAAMI dimensions are geared toward manually closed bolts.
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Old December 21, 2018, 12:11 PM   #58
F. Guffey
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I'll size to fit but when a gage is listed for example 1.630 and chambers Go and you can add a .003 shim and No Go wouldn't the chamber when it chambers with a .002 shim be 1.632 . Seems pretty simple to me .
"It seems pretty simple to you?" You can not believe how simple it is, you need to learn to use 'the datum'; you do not have to talk about the datum among your friends. When using a head space gage I verify the gage, I trust the gage and then there is that thing "the sum of which"..

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Old December 21, 2018, 06:30 PM   #59
cw308
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Wow , felt like I was back in High School , thank God for sports or I'd still be there . Never really had the 1.630 question answered only double talk . Sorry for asking , I'll stick to what I'm doing , To All have a Happy & Healthy Holiday .

Chris
PS Sorry oley55 for highjacking your Thread

Last edited by cw308; December 21, 2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old December 22, 2018, 12:15 PM   #60
F. Guffey
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Never really had the 1.630 question answered only double talk .
You should put some effort into answering your own question. I start out with a lot of given; the datum diameter of the 30/06 is .375", the datum diameter of the 308 W is .400" and the datum diameter for the 300 Win Mag is .410".

The 1.630 you are having trouble should be expressed as 1.630", if you can not come up with a datum that is .400" in diameter forget about verifying the gage. That applies when checking magnum cases with a .410" diameter, round hole datum.

Many years ago I suggested the datum was not a line, I suggested it is a circle/round hole and the round hole datum for the 30/06 family of cases was .375". And then I suggested reloaders drill a round hole with a 3/8" diameter drill bit and or use a 3/8" reamer with an undersize hole. Instead they head for the hardware to purchases bushing with 3/8" holes with no clue the radius at the end of the hole defeated the purpose of the datum like Sinclair/Hornady.

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answered only double talk
RC20 repeats an old quite from 'guess who?' The quote goes something like "reloading is not for everyone".

You are very selective about members that you participate with, I suggest you ask one of them what is the difference between 1.630 and 1.630". I also suggest you ask one of them what the 1.630" represents; because you believe the datum is a joke good luck verifying the gage, case, chamber and die.

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Old December 22, 2018, 01:11 PM   #61
cw308
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Sorry but I feel like I'm beating a dead bog to death . All I'm saying is when I used the go gage with the shims and duplicating that measurement to my sized case works for me . My help someone out there finding " headspace " couldn't resist sorry .

Chris
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Old December 22, 2018, 03:29 PM   #62
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nope CW, you just discovered how Savage shooters on a budget have been re barreling their rifles and setting headspace for a long time. A Go Gage with a couple of pieces of shim stock works perfectly well as a NO GO gage in a pinch. My last barrel was the first one that I used a real store bought NO GO gage on. I put on a half dozen or more using just a GO gage and a shim cut from a set of Harbor Freight feeler gages.

When adjusting my dies I just use the GO gage + .002, gives my case .001 wiggle room
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Old December 22, 2018, 04:04 PM   #63
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Great minds think alike , that village thing was really funny . Thank again
PS
I'm seeing more Savages on the firing line , they are making really accurate rifles a few of my friends are shooting the LRP's in 6.5 CM , very nice round if I didn't love shooting my 700 in 308 so much the next in line would be a 6.5CM

Chris

Last edited by cw308; December 22, 2018 at 04:29 PM.
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Old December 22, 2018, 07:05 PM   #64
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I'd go for the 6CM if I were you, tack drivers and speed demons with low recoil If you want 6.5 do the 6.5 x 47 Lapua or .260 Rem AI. Nothing against the CM, I just that rate it as a close third because of case capacity. When this 30 inch Shilen .260 burns out a 6CM or a 6 x 47 Lapua is it's next barrel. Probably this time next year or the following Spring
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Old December 22, 2018, 08:44 PM   #65
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I'm sticking with my 308 , my one an only for 10 years it's a part of me by now . My friends are shooting some nice rifles with $ 2,500. scopes , they travel an shoot longer distances but at 200 yards Im shooting on par with them with my Bushnell . Great Sport with people always willing to share what works best , in most cases . Only one time I asked a shooter shooting the same bullet , powder and caliber as me and I asked what charge and are you jumping or jamming . He said I'm not going to tell you what works best . All I said was " What " and he didn't shoot that good .

Last edited by cw308; December 23, 2018 at 09:03 AM.
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Old December 23, 2018, 08:12 PM   #66
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Guffey, you are a master at taking very simple things and complicating the heck out of them. I load both hunting and match bench rest ammo. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that about 90% of this crap does not matter. Different barrels like different combinations of variables. If you have a good barrel, you have a huge margin to work in and it still shoot.
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Old December 23, 2018, 09:07 PM   #67
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Well that was downright rude of the man CW. Down here in the South if we don't want to share we will at least tell you a entertaining lie about how our brother found a small stash of powder from 2001 that is no longer made etc etc. My favorite is that my cousin works in the QA lab at Alliant and sneaks me a pound of super secret test powder on occasion.

Now if you have two brain cells to rub together you will know we are lying and we will know that you know that we are lying but everyone walks away smiling. That's called civility
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Old December 24, 2018, 09:44 AM   #68
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Now I know your pulling my chain . In the military I was stationed for awhile in the South , SC , KY , GA and AL , The back bone of this country . A fun loving , down to earth and honest group of people I ever met , and yes the got me on a snipe hunt . I couldn't list what I said after " What " Have a Happy & Healthy .

Chris
PS
Today this old fart made 72 , still think I can go a few rounds .

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Old December 24, 2018, 01:06 PM   #69
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Happy B-day, Chris.

Don
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Old December 24, 2018, 02:45 PM   #70
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Happy Birthday Chris, my daughter was a Christmas baby also, she turned 35 today

On the tall tales bit I am not exaggerating much, I did have one high master tell me he was using some powder from the 70's that he had inherited from his Dad. Maybe it was true and may it wasn't.

The guy has given me some coaching on prone technique and helped me with a vertical stringing problem I had one day but he isn't going to give up all of his secrets. I take it as a compliment.
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Old December 24, 2018, 03:29 PM   #71
cw308
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Thanks guy's , I enjoy all the talks . The Best .

Chris
We sure beat the hell out of oley55's post .
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