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Old June 6, 2016, 02:59 PM   #151
Ton
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I feel this is a great example of a shooting that could have gone either way in the legal realm after the fact. I think a few very important factors swooped in to save the shooter that the average CCW carrier probably should always not count on.

The first, and already discussed, is that he was openly carrying. It was no secret that he had a firearm, and at one point in the video before the physical altercation starts, it even appeared the aggressor acknowledges the fact that he is carrying a firearm. No reasonable person is going to argue the fact that if he ended up on the losing end of that fight the gun could be taken.

The second, is that, IMHO, there is a clear disparity of force there. The shooter is surely not defenseless, but the attacker is built like a dump truck, and still has probably 50+ pounds on him. Anybody who has ever participated in any sort of martial arts, boxing, can testify to the fact that a size difference of that degree would put the defender at an extreme disadvantage.

The third, and the way I see it most important, is the video evidence that CLEARLY (not a shaky 18 second cell phone video from a single perspective) shows that the defender did everything he could and was literally backed into a corner before he resorted to the use of deadly force. He did not provoke the attack, he DID use "force less than deadly force" (multiple pushes with his support hand) to try to create distance and get the attacker to back off, and he endured the attack for quite a while before he even drew his firearm. Had that video not existed, I still believe the DA probably would have cleared him based on witness accounts alone, but it surely would have muddied up the water alot more.

Had a few of these variables been different (concealed carry vs open carry, no video, no witnesses other than the clerk who was probably just trying to get out of the way and not super focused on the fight itself), I think it would have been possible for the shooter to end up getting crapped on.
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Old June 6, 2016, 06:24 PM   #152
Mainah
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Why bother following a huge, angry, and irrational guy at a convenience store outside to capture his plates? Why not just hope that the store captured enough evidence on security cameras? The whole thing makes me wonder if open carry can make you more vulnerable to some poor soul seeking suicide by cop.
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Old June 6, 2016, 11:56 PM   #153
briandg
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Why? Because there was a drunk, half crazed individual who presented as a danger to other people. He was getting the tag number for identifying him to the police. He couldn't have known that captain crazy was as dangerous as he proved to be, but I think that it's pretty obvious that he presented a serious threat to anyone else he might have encountered.

I think that he was a little cocky, maybe, and maybe he, without meaning to, set the guy off by it. The guy knew that the police would soon be looking for him.

There a re e several places in the video that I question what he did, but I am absolutely not going to try him and judge him based on what I see there. His actions reflect the moment, and his impression of the situation.
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Old June 7, 2016, 05:56 AM   #154
stagpanther
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This thing was unbelievable. A verbal spat turned violent, rapidly escalated, and ended in that nightmare. I think that this thing is one for the text books. I can't stop analyzing it.
I've witnessed several shootings, one in particular I'll never forget--I was walking my dog one morning when I noticed a gangstah looking fellow stop at the stop sign across the street and down maybe 50 yds. While he was standing there, a white car pulled up and the rear window came down out came a 45 (I was there when the police later collected the spent cases) and the occupant rapid fired the entire clip at the guy--who was all of maybe 10 feet away. Incredibly, the guy did not go down and took off running, very fast, right towards me while reaching down towards his side pocket. I thought maybe he was reaching for a weapon and I took off running as fast as I could at an angle that split the difference between him and the car. I got to my house and called it in--the police got both the car and the guy who had been shot at--turns out what he was reaching for was a hole in his side where a bullet had done a complete pass-through.
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Old June 7, 2016, 07:02 AM   #155
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Why [bother following a huge, angry, and irrational guy at a convenience store outside to capture his plates]? Because there was a drunk, half crazed individual who presented as a danger to other people.
That's precisely why the actor should not have followed him.

Quote:
He was getting the tag number for identifying him to the police.
So he said, And as it happened, the video seems to support his account. But under some circumstances, his having followed the man outside could destroy a defense of justification in the event of a deadly force encounter or even a less serious incident. It could work against him in a civil trial, too.

Quote:
He couldn't have known that captain crazy was as dangerous as he proved to be, but I think that it's pretty obvious that he as he proved to be, but I think that it's pretty obvious that he presented a serious threat to anyone else he might have encountered.
That is the best reason in the world for anyone other than a sworn officer to stay away from him.

Quote:
I think that he was a little cocky, maybe, and maybe he, without meaning to, set the guy off by it. The guy knew that the police would soon be looking for him.
"A little cocky"? It was very risky, not at all prudent, and counter to the advice of every trainer and expert.
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Old June 7, 2016, 02:55 PM   #156
briandg
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Look, I agree. That was the one biggest mistake he made. I believe that it set the whole thing off.

He was right he should have gotten the tags, so that maybe someone else a half mile down the road didn't die, but he went outside and once again made a target out of himself. That guy was already angry, and he stepped into the danger zone by standing behind the car.

The event may have ended peacefully if he had been abit more discreet. He could have gotten the numbers as the car drove off. Would the guy have run when he cops found him? Would he have killed someone in a high speed collision?

Like I said, I can see several mistakes, all probably related to his overconfidence because he was a trainer. He wasn't a cop, or he would have had better situational skills.

Getting the tags was the right thing, it was handled badly.

I find it hard to fault this guy, he walked into something, and instead of letting it run its course and only intervening when needed, he inserted himself and escalated it beyond his capacity to resolve the situation peacefully.

Can we agree that his actions leading up to it and during it were poorly handled, and it resulted in an unnecessary shooting? There is no guarantee that the guy would have gone on his way peacefully, but mother Theresa could have calmed him down
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