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Old April 30, 2016, 10:05 AM   #1
rburch
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Odd request, X-Treme Bullets plated hollow point gel tests?

I have a bit of an interesting situation here.

I just moved over to an armed position at the security company I work for.

I was surprised when they issued me a Glock 19 that the duty ammo they issued were the Freedom Munitions Hollowpoints.

So we're clear, this is the description from the website about that load:

Quote:
Freedom Munitions hollow point pistol ammunition is loaded with the X-Treme Bullets plated hollow point. This bullet excels for sport shooting and provides excellent accuracy in an affordable price. The X-Treme hollow point is the exact same bullet used by some of the top shooters in 3 Gun, USPSA, IPSC and IDPA, This bullet is not however ideal for home defense or law enforcement purposes.
I'm a little concerned about carrying this ammo on duty as it was not designed as defensive ammo and almost certainly will fail the FBI or any other test.

Does anyone know of any gel tests that can confirm or disprove my fears?
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Old April 30, 2016, 02:55 PM   #2
GJSchulze
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HP bullets designed for competition means that they are not designed to expand. A bullet with a HP is longer than a bullet of the same weight that has a round nose. This added length gives the bullet more bearing surface in the barrel and therefore considered more accurate.

Clearly someone didn't read the fine print and/or doesn't understand firearms and bullets. Perhaps it's someone trying to save money.
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Old April 30, 2016, 04:27 PM   #3
Model12Win
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Kind of a waste. You might want to ask the company quartermaster about why? Maybe recommend some Gold Dots...
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Old April 30, 2016, 05:23 PM   #4
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The short answer is someone in the position of authority is a complete TOOL.

Either the person who bought & issued that ammo -OR- their boss who lets them do it without taking the time to see what they are doing is FOOLISH.

JHP handgun ammo serves two functions well... sometimes at the same time, sometimes NOT. That ammo is designed with a hollow cavity for the select purpose of having been constructed from the base to the tip, typically offering a more consistent bullet base, which is often more accurate.

Freedom Munitions is a remanufactered ammo company. Factory reloads. It's another way of saying that it's a legal and scaled up operation of handloading for profit. Many folks like their ammo, enough folks have shown clear evidence that it is very much "get what you pay for" ammo.

It's ludicrous and ignorant to save some money buying RELOADS to arm a commercial employee with an issued firearm who's only true purpose is to be used in the line of duty in a possible life & death situation.

From what little you wrote, the very best-case scenario that I can hope for is that the decision maker here is simply IGNORANT and not just plain cheap, careless and obnoxiously reckless.

First order of business?
Talk to the boss and ask him if you are allowed to carry your own purchased premium, quality defense ammo. If yes, then at least you can be the one astute person lost in a sea of ignorance. Second order of business would be a sit-down with the biggest boss you feel comfortable speaking with and attempt & hope that simple reason is well-received.

Sorry if my post comes off in a harsh manner. In my opinion, this is not quite is ignorant and obnoxious as arming their professional staff with Jiminez .32's, but it's kind of similar.
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Old April 30, 2016, 06:03 PM   #5
Slimjim9
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Freedom does new cases as well as remanufactured. I use new in 9mm and 357 but have had good results with the reman 38 158gr load. Great range ammo in my opinion. But I wouldn't use it for carry or duty. Too many other good options that are actually designed for that purpose.
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Old April 30, 2016, 07:03 PM   #6
2damnold4this
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The issue isn't so much that it may or may not be remanufactured ammo, it's the bullet that is used.

This bullet isn't designed for self defense. This bullet loaded by Freedom munitions is designed for self defense.
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Old May 1, 2016, 05:18 AM   #7
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Are you required to carry the issued ammo? If not, I wouldn't.
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Old May 1, 2016, 07:46 AM   #8
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Someone at that company has NOT done their homework very well...
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Old May 1, 2016, 07:47 AM   #9
Lohman446
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The decision maker has impressed the bosses with his (or her) experience in the various sport shooting venues. He and his buddies who are hired in are getting the company to foot the bill for ammunition used for practice and participation in these events and wants "the best available".
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Old May 1, 2016, 09:35 PM   #10
rburch
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A bit of update, I've emailed freedom for their position on the issue and discussed it with my supervisor and compliance officer that stopped by today.

They both agreed we need to get this sorted and ask I forward any response I get to them.

They both carry personally owned weapons and therefore aren't issued ammo.

It makes perfect sense to buy fmj in bulk from freedom for qualifying, which my company does.

I believe this whole thing came out of someone in purchasing seeing hollow points on the site for $0.20 a round and saying that would save us at least $5 per guard, plus we can order the duty ammo from the same place as our training ammo and save on shipping too.


Most people at work aren't gun guys, luckily my supervisor is, and with more luck we can get something suitable for duty use issued.
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Old May 1, 2016, 10:39 PM   #11
Sevens
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Good on you. If this works out, you will have helped EVERY guy armed for work and perhaps even helped your company on the whole.
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Old May 2, 2016, 03:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
I believe this whole thing came out of someone in purchasing seeing hollow points on the site for $0.20 a round and saying that would save us at least $5 per guard
Never underestimate the power of the purchasing department to prefer the cheapest option ignoring that you know more about the subject than they do and chose the more expensive option because it actually does what you want while the cheaper option either does not or requires more maintenance.

I spec'd file servers for my company. I was always after purchasing to buy the brand we liked and not shop around for the cheapest price no matter the brand. Purchasing gets rated on how much money they save on the initial cost, so the added cost of maintaining different brands of the same thing doesn't affect them, but raises the amount of time we spend doing maintenance.
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Old May 2, 2016, 09:46 AM   #13
Jim Watson
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Glocks are good feeders, but ammo ought to be tested.
Especially hollowpoints of any brand or type.
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Old May 3, 2016, 12:25 PM   #14
briandg
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Extreme bullets said, regarding those bullets, that they are not meant for defensive use and are for target use. It is very clearly stated on their website info.

Being also said on the box that it's not appropriate for defensive use has clearly and seriously put that company in the path for a destructive lawsuit, with so many openings that I can't even count them.

If he had issued a standard fmj, everyone would be in the clear. You, however, are in a combat position, and they issued ammo to you, to use in combat situations, that the manufacturer has declared to be unfit for combat. You will be protecting people, assets, and yourself with this ammo. You will be possibly shooting at people with ammo that is stated to be unfit for the use of shooting at people.

Don't bother telling me how ridiculous this sounds. People can sell billions of dollars worth of diet pills because of disclaimers. The disclaimer on the box is the key. If there is any form of failure to perform, there is an opening to go after the responsible parties. This is no different than a doctor prescribing a medication off label, if the maker has stated that it should other be done.
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Old May 6, 2016, 10:27 AM   #15
TimSr
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I won't blame the purchasing department for doing their job. In most companies, when they find a "better price", they must present their findings to whoever comes up the specifications to decide whether it's "the same thing" and meets all the specifications before they get an okay to change suppliers.

Everybody has a different opinion about self defense ammo, so having the MFG's disclaimer printed on the box sure makes the case. Good thing the OP had enough technical knowledge to question and actually look up the information. Makes him the instant resident expert now! I do find it troubling that an armed security company managed to let this slip by. It's one thing to argue about the merits, but its another when the MFG specifically states not to use it for the purpose it's being used. This could haunt them in any mishap, even if it had nothing to do with the bullet performance.
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Old May 23, 2016, 02:52 AM   #16
rburch
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Been a while but it's been a busy time.

Updates:

I've forwarded the reply I got up to my supervisor.

It was pretty much as people stated, these are not expanding bullets.

Since we've been dealing with opening a new site and extreme understaffing issues I'm not sure if my supervisor has passed the info on or not.

I do know if he does it's not gonna be popular since they are buying this ammo at $.20 a round.

Changing to any reputable hollow point is going cost.

We're talking several hundred guards at 46 rounds each we're looking at least around 10,000-15,000 rounds.

Company owners and boards don't like to hear that the made mistakes that cost the company that much...
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Old May 23, 2016, 08:38 PM   #17
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
Company owners and boards don't like to hear that the made mistakes that cost the company that much...
They deferred the cost for some period of time. That saved them some money. The old ammo doesn't need to be scrapped. You can still qualify with it.
Plenty of security/LEO/Military carry FMJ.
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