How High Can I Go - W231 & 122g LFP?

February 14, 2001, 03:11 PM

Hi all. Am loading 122g lead flat point with W231. Have gone up to 4.5g and would like to go a little higher. What do your loading maunals say as to how high I can safely go? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Frank

Paul B. · February 14, 2001, 03:56 PM

Frank. In what caliber? From the weight, I would guess 9MM, but can't help otherwise.
Paul B.

February 14, 2001, 04:21 PM

Hi Paul. My bad. You are correct, this is a 9mm lead cast bullet. Thanks.

johnwill · February 14, 2001, 06:58 PM

How many fingers do you want to end up with?

Seriously, I don't think this is something that I'd be taking postings from anonymous people as gospel. If you don't have decent reloading manuals, I'd buy several of them, I have an even half dozen on my shelf. I never check just one on a new load, to minimize the possibility of a typo ruining my day.

tonyz · February 14, 2001, 07:57 PM

I Agree with johnwill, There is reloading data avalible on the web.
Being that they are lead your going to run into a leading problum at some point. Call the manufacture and see if they offer reloading data for the brand of lead cast bullets you are using.
lazer-cast 122Gr FP load data has 4.4 W231 as max for there bullets.You are already over max!

Tony Z

Blue Heeler · February 14, 2001, 09:59 PM

Three and a half to four grains will do all you want a lead projectile to do.There are other important factors to consider too--how deep you seat the projectile,and how you crimp it spring to mind.Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you are trying to achieve with this lead projectile load?

Johnny Guest · February 15, 2001, 01:57 AM

tonyz--

He's over max suggested for lead bullets, yes--

But I don't think he's dangerous with 4.5 gr and 122 LFP. Reason I say this is that I have at least one manual--Speer Number Twelve--that shows 4.5 as max for 125 JACKETED bullets--which develop a bit more pressure than a lead bullet of equal weight.

Many--not ALL by any means--lead bullet max loads, esp in autopistols, have to do with excessive leading, not with dangerous pressures.

But by all means, we should never exceed published data unless we know exactly and precisely what we're doing.

Thanks for the cautionary statement, tonyz. I am very happy that members who post on this forum are looking out for one another. Keep it up, friends.

Johnny
H&R Moderator and Nervous Old Mother Hen
MOLON LABE

February 15, 2001, 08:28 AM

Johwill, I am not asking for anonymous opinions about how high I should load these; I am asking for reference help from those of you with manuals that speak to this bullet & powder combination. I have Winchester's, Lyman's & Midway's load books and none talk about this bullet using W231 powder. If those of you with manuals that reference this bullet and powder combination would provide me with the listed ranges, I would appreciate it.

Blue, I want to duplicate the 124g Speer Gold Dot +P feel. 4.5g still feels a little light. My OAL is 1.035, which is just above the lube ring. If I seat it any further, I would be crimping into the lube ring. My crimp is .379.

Toneyz, I tried calling Oregon Trail the other day. They said their tech was out until Friday & I should call back then. Looks like you saved me the trouble, thanks.

Regards,
Frank

tonyz · February 15, 2001, 09:38 AM

faiello5

I have the Oregon Trail Lazer-cast reoading manual if you need some data from that book feel free to e-mail me.
The 122 FP is one of the most accurate bullets for my 9MM.
(My OAL is 1.035). Oregon Trail recommends An OAL in Their 122 FP to be 1.070

[email protected]

Best,

Tony

johnwill · February 15, 2001, 08:51 PM

OK, I'll buy info direct from the manual.

Lyman 47th: 121gr (#2 alloy) 3.0gr to 4.1gr W231 (max 30,200 CUP)

Speer 12th: 125gr (4601) 3.8gr to 4.1gr W231

Hornady 4th: 124gr (3567) 4.7gr to 5.3gr W231

It seems that Hornady things you can push things a lot harder than the other folks.

FWIW, several other manuals had no loads for W231, or no lead bullets in 9mm...

Bill Adair · February 16, 2001, 02:14 PM

Faiello5,

Weigh some of those 122gr bullets just for kicks, and see if the weight isn't actually closer to 124gr, including the bullet lube. You should be safe using the Oregon Trail data for 124gr bullets.

Note that Oregon Trail lists a max of 4.4gr of 231, but goes to 4.7gr of HP-38, which is essentially the same powder!

The gun is also a very big factor, so if yours is not rated for high velocity P+ loads, I'd stay away from max loads altogether!

Bill

tonyz · February 16, 2001, 05:51 PM

Bill

Oregon Trail Lazer-cast makes a 122 Grain lead 9mm Flat point and the load data is in there load book.

Best Tony

Bill Adair · February 17, 2001, 03:28 AM

Tonyz,

Noticed that, but I wonder if they aren't just using that marginal difference to make a clearer distinction between their FP bullets, and the 124gr RN? The lube alone can vary almost that much, in bullets from the same batch.

I've only used their 124gr RN in my 9mm guns, and I'm quite happy with those.

Bill

tonyz · February 17, 2001, 08:50 AM

I have had good luck with all their bullets.

The 122 gr I have, weight out to 121.0 +- .05 on the avarage.

Tony Z

Bill Adair · February 17, 2001, 02:57 PM

Tonyz,

So, the 122gr bullets really really are lighter. Oh well, it was just a theory.

My experience with Oregon Trail Bullets has been pleasant indeed.

I use them in 9X18, 9X19, 357, and 45 Colt, and no longer see leading in any of my guns.

The customer service, like their product, is outstanding!

I complained to them once about UPS sending half of my order to Washington DC, instead of Washington state, and it taking two weeks longer to reach me. I didn't think any more about it, but the next order I placed was doubled in quantity free of charge, and they even paid the additional shipping!

Another time I asked if I could have a second copy of their excellent load manual, but they said their policy was one per customer, and they were sending free hats with orders of 2000 bullets instead. When my order came, it included the free hat, and the extra $24.95 manual, again at no charge!

I won't buy my lead bullets anywhere else!

Bill

**Mal H** · February 18, 2001, 01:33 AM

Bill, I have had similar experience with OTB. One order I received had been broken open from obvious mishandling by UPS and about 200 out of 1000 had leaked out along the way to my house. I called to see if they would send me the 200 bullets. The lady on their end and I had a good laugh as we imagined a trail of bullets all the way from Oregon to Virginia. She said they couldn't break up a box of 500, so she would send me a box at no charge for shipping. What I received was 1000 - no charge. I think I have more of their boxes in my reloading room than any other brand. Besides their first rate service, I have also found their bullets to be first rate which is perhaps the most important factor in it all.

Bill Adair · February 18, 2001, 04:31 AM

Mal,

I agree, Oregon Trail bullets are excellent, and they not only eliminated the leading problems with my Blackhawk, but shoot as well as anything else I've tried.

Really wish I had a Ransom Rest for accuracy testing, because I can't really be sure of my results, with so many other factors effecting accuracy.

I do know that my single best one hole group with my 45 Colt Blackhawk, was fired using OT bullets, and Ramshot True Blue powder! How much each contributed to that group is purely guess work on my part.

Bill

February 14, 2001, 07:57 PM	#5
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	I Agree with johnwill, There is reloading data avalible on the web. Being that they are lead your going to run into a leading problum at some point. Call the manufacture and see if they offer reloading data for the brand of lead cast bullets you are using. lazer-cast 122Gr FP load data has 4.4 W231 as max for there bullets.You are already over max! Tony Z __________________ Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained

February 15, 2001, 01:57 AM	#7
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	MAX 231 loads for 9 mm lead bullets tonyz-- He's over max suggested for lead bullets, yes-- But I don't think he's dangerous with 4.5 gr and 122 LFP. Reason I say this is that I have at least one manual--Speer Number Twelve--that shows 4.5 as max for 125 JACKETED bullets--which develop a bit more pressure than a lead bullet of equal weight. Many--not ALL by any means--lead bullet max loads, esp in autopistols, have to do with excessive leading, not with dangerous pressures. But by all means, we should never exceed published data unless we know exactly and precisely what we're doing. Thanks for the cautionary statement, tonyz. I am very happy that members who post on this forum are looking out for one another. Keep it up, friends. Johnny H&R Moderator and Nervous Old Mother Hen MOLON LABE

February 15, 2001, 09:38 AM	#9
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	Reloading Manual faiello5 I have the Oregon Trail Lazer-cast reoading manual if you need some data from that book feel free to e-mail me. The 122 FP is one of the most accurate bullets for my 9MM. (My OAL is 1.035). Oregon Trail recommends An OAL in Their 122 FP to be 1.070 [email protected] Best, Tony

February 14, 2001, 03:11 PM	#1
faiello5 Guest Posts: n/a	Hi all. Am loading 122g lead flat point with W231. Have gone up to 4.5g and would like to go a little higher. What do your loading maunals say as to how high I can safely go? Thanks in advance. Regards, Frank

February 14, 2001, 03:56 PM	#2
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Frank. In what caliber? From the weight, I would guess 9MM, but can't help otherwise. Paul B.

February 14, 2001, 04:21 PM	#3
faiello5 Guest Posts: n/a	Hi Paul. My bad. You are correct, this is a 9mm lead cast bullet. Thanks.

February 14, 2001, 06:58 PM	#4
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	How many fingers do you want to end up with? Seriously, I don't think this is something that I'd be taking postings from anonymous people as gospel. If you don't have decent reloading manuals, I'd buy several of them, I have an even half dozen on my shelf. I never check just one on a new load, to minimize the possibility of a typo ruining my day.

February 14, 2001, 09:59 PM	#6
Blue Heeler Junior member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Queensland Posts: 1,043	Three and a half to four grains will do all you want a lead projectile to do.There are other important factors to consider too--how deep you seat the projectile,and how you crimp it spring to mind.Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you are trying to achieve with this lead projectile load?

February 15, 2001, 08:28 AM	#8
faiello5 Guest Posts: n/a	Johwill, I am not asking for anonymous opinions about how high I should load these; I am asking for reference help from those of you with manuals that speak to this bullet & powder combination. I have Winchester's, Lyman's & Midway's load books and none talk about this bullet using W231 powder. If those of you with manuals that reference this bullet and powder combination would provide me with the listed ranges, I would appreciate it. Blue, I want to duplicate the 124g Speer Gold Dot +P feel. 4.5g still feels a little light. My OAL is 1.035, which is just above the lube ring. If I seat it any further, I would be crimping into the lube ring. My crimp is .379. Toneyz, I tried calling Oregon Trail the other day. They said their tech was out until Friday & I should call back then. Looks like you saved me the trouble, thanks. Regards, Frank

February 15, 2001, 08:51 PM	#10
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	OK, I'll buy info direct from the manual. Lyman 47th: 121gr (#2 alloy) 3.0gr to 4.1gr W231 (max 30,200 CUP) Speer 12th: 125gr (4601) 3.8gr to 4.1gr W231 Hornady 4th: 124gr (3567) 4.7gr to 5.3gr W231 It seems that Hornady things you can push things a lot harder than the other folks. FWIW, several other manuals had no loads for W231, or no lead bullets in 9mm...

February 16, 2001, 02:14 PM	#11
Bill Adair Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Seattle/Tacoma, WA USA Posts: 345	Faiello5, Weigh some of those 122gr bullets just for kicks, and see if the weight isn't actually closer to 124gr, including the bullet lube. You should be safe using the Oregon Trail data for 124gr bullets. Note that Oregon Trail lists a max of 4.4gr of 231, but goes to 4.7gr of HP-38, which is essentially the same powder! The gun is also a very big factor, so if yours is not rated for high velocity P+ loads, I'd stay away from max loads altogether! Bill

February 16, 2001, 05:51 PM	#12
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	Bill Oregon Trail Lazer-cast makes a 122 Grain lead 9mm Flat point and the load data is in there load book. Best Tony

February 17, 2001, 03:28 AM	#13
Bill Adair Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Seattle/Tacoma, WA USA Posts: 345	Tonyz, Noticed that, but I wonder if they aren't just using that marginal difference to make a clearer distinction between their FP bullets, and the 124gr RN? The lube alone can vary almost that much, in bullets from the same batch. I've only used their 124gr RN in my 9mm guns, and I'm quite happy with those. Bill

February 17, 2001, 08:50 AM	#14
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	I have had good luck with all their bullets. The 122 gr I have, weight out to 121.0 +- .05 on the avarage. Tony Z

February 17, 2001, 02:57 PM	#15
Bill Adair Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Seattle/Tacoma, WA USA Posts: 345	Tonyz, So, the 122gr bullets really really are lighter. Oh well, it was just a theory. My experience with Oregon Trail Bullets has been pleasant indeed. I use them in 9X18, 9X19, 357, and 45 Colt, and no longer see leading in any of my guns. The customer service, like their product, is outstanding! I complained to them once about UPS sending half of my order to Washington DC, instead of Washington state, and it taking two weeks longer to reach me. I didn't think any more about it, but the next order I placed was doubled in quantity free of charge, and they even paid the additional shipping! Another time I asked if I could have a second copy of their excellent load manual, but they said their policy was one per customer, and they were sending free hats with orders of 2000 bullets instead. When my order came, it included the free hat, and the extra $24.95 manual, again at no charge! I won't buy my lead bullets anywhere else! Bill

February 18, 2001, 01:33 AM	#16
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Bill, I have had similar experience with OTB. One order I received had been broken open from obvious mishandling by UPS and about 200 out of 1000 had leaked out along the way to my house. I called to see if they would send me the 200 bullets. The lady on their end and I had a good laugh as we imagined a trail of bullets all the way from Oregon to Virginia. She said they couldn't break up a box of 500, so she would send me a box at no charge for shipping. What I received was 1000 - no charge. I think I have more of their boxes in my reloading room than any other brand. Besides their first rate service, I have also found their bullets to be first rate which is perhaps the most important factor in it all.

February 18, 2001, 04:31 AM	#17
Bill Adair Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Seattle/Tacoma, WA USA Posts: 345	Mal, I agree, Oregon Trail bullets are excellent, and they not only eliminated the leading problems with my Blackhawk, but shoot as well as anything else I've tried. Really wish I had a Ransom Rest for accuracy testing, because I can't really be sure of my results, with so many other factors effecting accuracy. I do know that my single best one hole group with my 45 Colt Blackhawk, was fired using OT bullets, and Ramshot True Blue powder! How much each contributed to that group is purely guess work on my part. Bill