40S&W semi-auto - why no .40 revolver cartridge?

[TheFlash]

Just throwing out a thought or two - I had recently with the question:

Some think that the .38Spl even in +P is a rather weak defensive round (less effective than 9mm).
The .357 Magnum is a good stopper cartridge, but is quite a handful.
The 45LC has a low muzzle energy/stopping power than some other smaller bore semi-auto cartridges. (Good for the old west, but there are some better choices these days.)
The 45ACP can be used in revolvers, but need the moon or half moon clips.

So, aside from the new Charter Arms revolvers that now have the secondary spring which works with the 9mm, 40S&W or 45ACP rimless cartridges...

Why has there not been any .40 caliber, rimmed, revolver cartridge that has been developed?


-Mike

[HALL,AUSTIN]

Hate to be harsh but everything you said was wrong. 45colt... Not long colt, is a great man stopper. Its essentially 45acp. 38+p is also rather effective. And there IS a .40S&W revolver. Charter arms pitbull

[SIGSHR]

We've had the 41 Magnum since 1964, I cherish my M-57 but the 41 isn't exactly a best seller. 40 S&W in a revolver? Like the 9MM in a revolver-9MM Federal anyone? Appeals to the real hardcore aficionados but not to the more general gun buying public. Like carbines in 40 S&W or 10MM Auto-if there was a real market for them somebody would fill it.

[HALL,AUSTIN]

Somebody HAS filled the niche
http://www.charterfirearms.com/produ...bull_74020.asp

[TheFlash]

Austin - thank you for your comments. Some reply from me regarding your comments:

Regarding the 45 Colt - I identified the 45 Colt as "45LC" since that is what is commonly printed on the ammo boxes. Most people would see 45LC and know what I'm referring to where others may not be aware of "45 Colt" and have some confusion. (I have 3 45 Colt revolvers - so am very familiar with that caliber.)
The 45 Colt cartridge is a decent stopper, but if you compare some ammo that is out there like the Hornady Critical Defense:

45LC =
•Muzzle Velocity: 920 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 348 ft. lbs.

45ACP =
•Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 411 ft. lbs.

Hornady Critical Duty in 9mm +P =
•Muzzle Velocity: 1110 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 369 ft. lbs.


Other ammo manufacturers indicate that the 45 Colt does have a lower muzzle velocity and energy than the 45ACP and even some 9mm ammo.
Shot placement is obviously the most important, but the 45ACP and 9mm+P does appear to provide more energy delivered on target than the 45 Colt.

And, my question was: Why has there not been any .40 caliber, rimmed, revolver cartridge that has been developed?

Also, in my original post, I mentioned the new Charter Arms revolvers that now have the secondary spring which works with the 9mm, 40S&W or 45ACP rimless cartridges...

Regards,
Mike

[TheFlash]

SIGSHR - thank you!

I completely forgot about the .41 Magnum!

That answers the question - thanks again...

Regards,
Mike

[HALL,AUSTIN]

You were correct mike. My oppologies

[Webleymkv]

There's the .38-40 Winchester which actually uses a .401" diameter bullet and the .41 Long Colt which uses a .386" diameter bullet, and the .41 Rimfire which uses a .405" diameter bullet (though to be fair, the latter produces only a meager 52 ft. lbs. energy). Also, the .41 Magnum was originally offered in two loadings: the full power hunting loading and a more moderate police loading which drove a 210gr LSWC at 900-1000fps.

[TheFlash]

No worries Austin - I enjoy a good discussion!

And, more good info from Webley - thank you!

I need to dust off those old brain cells and remember some of this stuff before posting...

-Mike

[TMD]

Ruger actually made a vequero in .40S&W for a very short time.

[Bob Wright]

As was pointed out, the .38-40 is a fine .40 caliber round, as was the original .41 Colt centerfire rounds. There were several .40 caliber wildcatters during the 'Sixties such as the .400 Eimer and the .401 Special, both of which used either .41 Colt or .38-40 barrels, the bore diameters being the same.

I have one such cartridge in my collection based on the .303 Savage case, I believe, though many preferred the .401 WSL case.

Unfortunately the .41 Magnum which came out around 1963 halted further experimentation. A shame, as far as I'm concerned, as the .41 Magnum was too close to the .44 Magnum in performance and required just as heavy a revovler. The ideal, especially as envisioned by law enforcement officers was a .40 caliber that could be built on the K-Frame Smith & Wesson, the L-Frame still being in the future then.

Incidentally, Lee Martin has a couple of specimens of a round headstamped "W-W 400 Colt Magnum," or maybe just "W-W .400 Colt."

Bob Wright

[gak]

....And, as to the discussion of viable SD revolver cartridges, in your/OP's original list (.38+P, .357, .45 Colt, .45ACP), glaring omission of the .44 Special. Similar to .45 ACP "close in" where most SD occurs, but as a bonus the .44's has superiority at longer/hunting ranges and loadings, and typically a bit more available than .41 Mag. Yes, the .41 hits harder, but at SD distances not a factor/not needed, and the .44 is milder on the shooter (than either the .357 or .41M), regardless of how hot you load it. The .44 Special's a great SD cartridge. If you can only load five anyway, which is what most .4_ cal DA/SD revolvers are, might as well have a bigger hole which = .44 (.429) or .45.

[dorc-1]

Taurus makes the .40 revolver and uses moon clips. I guess Charter Arms must have some sort of patent, and other builders have not been able to match the secondary spring. Cartridge has not been developed as this is a very small niche market where there is no demand for it. If I owned the .40 revolver I would want a cartridge that would work in both the semi and revolver.

[carguychris]

Bob touches on two things that I'd like to comment about.

As was pointed out, the .38-40 is a fine .40 caliber round, as was the original .41 Colt centerfire rounds.

FWIW the .41 Long Colt essentially died an early and undeserved death because Colt tried to change an outside-lubricated heeled-bullet cartridge into an inside-lubricated cartridge by using hollow-base bullets that were supposed to expand and grip the oversize bore. It was a lousy idea, the bullets rarely worked properly, and the cartridge soon earned a reputation for really miserable accuracy.

.41LC guns shoot fine if the bullet is properly matched to the bore diameter, but Colt built the guns using several differing bore diameters, thereby making it impossible for commercial ammo companies to adapt!

IOW .41LC was fine in concept but Colt totally botched the execution. .38Spl offered comparable energy coupled with far superior accuracy, and shooters abandoned the .41LC in droves.

Unfortunately the .41 Magnum which came out around 1963 halted further experimentation. A shame, as far as I'm concerned, as the .41 Magnum was too close to the .44 Magnum in performance and required just as heavy a revovler. The ideal, especially as envisioned by law enforcement officers was a .40 caliber that could be built on the K-Frame Smith & Wesson, the L-Frame still being in the future then.

+1; one of the main factors leading to the absence of a popular .40ish-caliber cartridge was that, for many decades, neither Colt nor S&W built a "right sized" revolver optimized for one. All the guns were either too big or too small, and by the time the S&W L frame came out, it was becoming clear that the future of the LE market was in autoloaders.

[SIGSHR]

I don't recall any small frame/5 shot revolvers for the 41 Magnum, it was quite a thing when Charter Arms introduced their Bulldog and they had that market to themselves for a long time. The problem with a small frame 41 Magnum would be using Magnum loaded ammunition in it , when Charter Arms
introduced the Bulldog the 44 Special ammunition was loaded light to accomodate all the older, mostly pre-WWII guns chambered for it. The problem with the 38-40 is that it is a tapered case which is not all that suitable for double action revolvers. The 9MM Federal did not make it in the market, would a 40 S&W revolver round do any better?

[jmr40]

S&W used to offer a 10mm revolver. Would it not also fire 40S&W?

[Budda]

Yes but it might slip in the chamber farther depending on where it is held. I think with moon clips it would be fine.

[coolbreezy]

the s&w 610 can shoot both 10mm and 40 with the use of moon clips

[DragonDog]

SIGSHR touched on it above - the 44 Special is actually 0.43" diameter bullet. A 240gr SWC-HP at 900 fps will produce 431.6 ft/lbs of energy according to the Hornady reloading manual.

There aren't a lot of commercial loads out there for 44 Spl, and what there are are pretty expensive. More than even .44 Magnum in some cases. I've checked.

Still, I remain intrigued by the Charter Bulldog. It's the only solution I know of to the question you're asking. If I were to acquire one, I would immediately also get a set of dies in .44 and some brass and go to work.

[Mike Irwin]

"There were several .40 caliber wildcatters during the 'Sixties such as the .400 Eimer."

Pop Eimer came up with his concept for the .400 Eimer in the 1920s.

I've often said that a Smith J frame chambered for the .41 Long Colt would be a VERY interesting gun.

[Webleymkv]

I've often said that a Smith J frame chambered for the .41 Long Colt would be a VERY interesting gun.

I don't know how well it would work. The OD of the .41 Long Colt case is roughly .408" while the .38 S&W, which is the largest diameter case the J-Frame has ever been chambered for AFAIK, has a base diameter of .3865". I'm thinking that a .41 Long Colt J-Frame would have some awfully thin chamber walls, but then again if the pressure is low enough it might still be OK (I've not been able to find any references as to what pressure the .41 LC operates at).

[Bob Wright]

Mike Irwin wrote:

"There were several .40 caliber wildcatters during the 'Sixties such as the .400 Eimer."

Pop Eimer came up with his concept for the .400 Eimer in the 1920s.

I was aware of that date, however, in my baliwick these guns, usually converted Colt New Service revolvers or Single Actions, became popular during the post-War years. There were several hunting clubs in Mississippi near Memphis where the specialty was hunting wild boar, both feral and Russian, using these guns. H.L. Highsmith was one local gunsmith whose converted guns were highly prized.

Bob Wright

[pete2]

WE have .45 and .357, there is no need of a .40 as far as I can see. It's puzzling why the .40S&W is so popular.

[darkroommike]

I've also read an article or two (sorry no citations) for a wildcat .41 Special, which is a .41 Magnum cased trimmed to the same OAL as the .44 Special. Even Elmer Keith had a good word or two to say about the concept. There is now, apparently, .41SPC brass available with the proper headstamp, probably Starline.

[ohen cepel]

I don't think there is a need nor demand for a .40 in a revolver. If it hadn't been for the Florida shootout years ago and the FBI looking to blame ammo for the deaths there the .40S&W wouldn't exist either.