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Old April 15, 2019, 01:53 PM   #1
Cosmodragoon
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Single-Stack Subcompact DA/SA in 9mm?

Ever since guns like the Walther PPS and Shield came onto the market, I've been waiting for their DA/SA counterparts. I know this style of action has fallen out of favor but it still has a big following worldwide. I'm not talking about chunky double-stack subcompacts like the CZ Rami. I'm talking about thin single-stack subcompacts.

The closest thing I've seen so far is the Springfield XDE. Something is better than nothing but I just don't feel enthusiastic about this one. Reviews seem mediocre. The trigger could be better. Like so many other people, I hate the "grip zone". The next complaint might be controversial but I really don't like having a manual safety on DA/SA guns. Decockers are fine. Manual safeties seem totally unnecessary with a DA/SA system and they absolutely are something that can go wrong in a defensive encounter.

So tell me the XDE isn't the only game in town. What other guns could scratch this itch?
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Old April 15, 2019, 02:18 PM   #2
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Of course if you don't mind the lower power of the "other" 9MM there is the Makarov in 9X18 Makarov.
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Old April 15, 2019, 02:43 PM   #3
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Springfield XD-E is only current production DA/SA hammer fired pistol I am aware of that is as thin as a Shield, PPS, etc but it is also taller. IMO there is not near enough market demand for such DA/SA pistols. If the XD-E was a run away best seller like the SIG P365 I am sure other manufacturers would take notice but it is not, not even close.
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Old April 15, 2019, 03:26 PM   #4
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On the used market, S&W 3913, 908, or CS9 would be good choices.
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Old April 15, 2019, 03:31 PM   #5
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

None of these are anywhere near as thin and light as an M&P Shield.
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Old April 15, 2019, 04:13 PM   #6
Cosmodragoon
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Quote:
Springfield XD-E is only current production DA/SA hammer fired pistol I am aware of that is as thin as a Shield, PPS, etc but it is also taller. IMO there is not near enough market demand for such DA/SA pistols. If the XD-E was a run away best seller like the SIG P365 I am sure other manufacturers would take notice but it is not, not even close.
I wonder how much of that is because of how Springfield did it?

As you can see, I'm exactly the demographic who is clamoring for this type of product. Yet, I am thoroughly unimpressed here. It's sort of like getting lost in the desert and being totally parched. You find a cooler in the shade of a large rock and get excited. You lift the lid and behold, a hot can of Tab.
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Old April 15, 2019, 04:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cosmodragoon View Post
I wonder how much of that is because of how Springfield did it?

As you can see, I'm exactly the demographic who is clamoring for this type of product. Yet, I am thoroughly unimpressed here. It's sort of like getting lost in the desert and being totally parched. You find a cooler in the shade of a large rock and get excited. You lift the lid and behold, a hot can of Tab.
LOL!

Not sure exactly what the reasons are. I would not mind having a quality thin, compact, and light poly frame DA/SA hammer fired myself but it would have to be done right and not necessarily to make a price point in a very competitive market which is a big problem in itself. If HK made one I would be all over it.
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Old April 15, 2019, 04:51 PM   #8
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I'd buy one too. I also find the XD-E pretty bland but perfectly usable. It's not a big seller even against Springfield's other offerings. I won't hold my breath for another like it. Striker single stacks with higher capacities are gonna win the day.
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Old April 15, 2019, 05:12 PM   #9
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The striker guns might be more popular and I imagine they cost less to manufacture. Still, I think there are a bunch of us who would buy a quality answer to this hole in the market.

If I saw a nice DA/SA in the size and weight range of the PPS or Shield, I would be all over it. I'd prefer "decocker only" but I could make room if the overall product were good enough. I want a hammer but I've got an open mind. For instance, a PPS with the P99's trigger system would be sweet.
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Old April 15, 2019, 06:02 PM   #10
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I want a Makarov, but have you seen the prices? I want a .380 Mak, to make it worse.

I also want a Walther CCP m2, which is a gas-assist Makarov with improved takedown ergonomics over the CCP. I don’t see how it can’t be a tack driver.

While we are talking blowback systems, somehow the Bersa Thunder is better shooting than the PPK. I used to own both. I never did figure out how the cheap copy was just somehow undefinable better for me and everyone that tried them both side by side. I sold em.

So when I get around to it I plan on shooting the Glock 42, shield ez and the baby Walther... nothing wrong with .380.

The sad answer is “Just get the 43x. You will be assimilated”

Or do we just bite the bullet and get the Sig?
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Old April 15, 2019, 06:52 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by sigarms228 View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

None of these are anywhere near as thin and light as an M&P Shield.
A M&P Shield isn't anywhere near a DA/SA autoloader which is what the OP wants.
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Old April 15, 2019, 06:55 PM   #12
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A M&P Shield isn't anywhere near a DA/SA autoloader which is what the OP wants.
Yes, he wants one similar in size including thinness, weight, and capacity to a Shield. Yet people continue to post DA/SA pistols that are not close to that.
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Old April 15, 2019, 07:48 PM   #13
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I might be looking for something that doesn't exist yet. DA/SA was the prevailing style for a long time and continues to be in some parts of the world. Some of the historical guns discussed so far come from those parts of the world. Of course, those guns are not in the intended caliber. In many of those places, our 9mm may be banned for civilian use and gun rights in general may be heavily restricted.

Here in the United States, where our dedicated efforts have protected or even restored rights in many places, we've got the best civilian firearms market in the world. On the heels of the polymer and striker revolutions, we've seen concealed carry driving the trends responsible for guns like the PPS, Shield, etc. I could be wrong but it seems like a lot of the current DA/SA designs are coming from those other places. The confluence of these factors are probably preventing the pursuit of what I'm looking for here. For instance, getting something really good in this category would probably require a company like Walther, Beretta, HK, CZ, Grand Power, (etc.) to buck the trend and invest in developing it for sale in the States.
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Old April 15, 2019, 09:15 PM   #14
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Cosmodragon, definitely not the specific caliber you asked about, but I myself have been switching back and forth between my Sig P230 (w/Hogue rubber grips) and Bersa Thunder 380 Combat over the last several months. Concerning capacity I definitely prefer the Bersa since I have a pair of the stock 8-rd mags and an extended 9-rounder, but I also love the slick slide of the Sig with only the decocker and disassembly lever on the frame in spite of it only being a 7+1 (pair of spare mags with it also).

I also love how they both give more grip purchase than what I experienced with either my Shield, Glock 43, or XDS-9, all of which were eventually sold off. I know they aren’t a popular choice because of caliber, but in no way do I feel undergunned with either of them on my side.
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Old April 15, 2019, 09:32 PM   #15
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I prefer DA/SA but the mechanics of it dictate a larger firearm. Striker fired guns are able to be packaged in smaller formats.

Just food for thought. Where does size become a game of diminishing returns. I personally find most all small autos small enough for say pocket carry still either print like a GUN or are a bitch to draw from pocket vs say a JFrame.

If you are going to use a holster why not go up to something allowing for a more fighting grip, control.
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Old April 15, 2019, 11:44 PM   #16
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The CZ 2075 RAMI ( the “B” is the safety model, the “BD” is the decocker model) is close to what you’re looking for except it’s alloy framed with a double stack mag. The RAMI P version with a polymer frame went out of production a few years back, and some of those had bulges in the frame. The RAMI B I tried out was a good shooting little pistol!
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Old April 16, 2019, 02:52 AM   #17
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I've owned and carried DA/SA guns in .380 and .32 acp. I've liked some of them very much. I just want a little more oomph in a defensive firearm. The smallest gun I carry these days is an LCR 327. It's a six-shooter that offers decent power and has reasonable recoil. In most pants, it rides well in a pocket holster and draws nicely.

The problem is that sometimes, in some outfits, it doesn't. There are times when I want a small single-stack 9mm for other carry methods. I had been flirting with a Sig P239 for years and just never closed the deal. I thought about the Sphinx Subcompact too... The problem is that having these compact inch-wide polymer nines on the market makes me want a slimmer DA/SA. Darn it! If Springfield can do the crap version, can't another company make the good version?
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Old April 16, 2019, 08:34 AM   #18
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Sig P239.
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Old April 16, 2019, 09:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmodragoon View Post
Ever since guns like the Walther PPS and Shield came onto the market, I've been waiting for their DA/SA counterparts. I know this style of action has fallen out of favor but it still has a big following worldwide. I'm not talking about chunky double-stack subcompacts like the CZ Rami. I'm talking about thin single-stack subcompacts.

The closest thing I've seen so far is the Springfield XDE. Something is better than nothing but I just don't feel enthusiastic about this one.
I shot one once. It was "meh" to me, like another Makarov. Will stick with my XDS-s.

Quote:
Reviews seem mediocre. The trigger could be better. Like so many other people, I hate the "gripe zone".
Talon grip wrap. Done.

And more recent ones have dropped the verbiage. Look at the 3.8" and 4.5" XDEs. No "gripe zone".

Quote:
The next complaint might be controversial but I really don't like having a manual safety on DA/SA guns. Decockers are fine. Manual safeties seem totally unnecessary with a DA/SA system and they absolutely are something that can go wrong in a defensive encounter.
The XDE safety decocks. If you want to run it that way, you can. It also allows folks that want to do cocked-and-locked to do so.

Quote:
So tell me the XDE isn't the only game in town. What other guns could scratch this itch?
Taurus?
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Old April 16, 2019, 11:21 AM   #20
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... And more recent ones have dropped the verbiage. Look at the 3.8" and 4.5" XDEs. No "gripe zone"...
That is a step in the right direction. I'll keep an eye out to see if it disappears from the smallest version.

Quote:
The XDE safety decocks. If you want to run it that way, you can. It also allows folks that want to do cocked-and-locked to do so.
Yes. The XDE uses a two-direction switch like the FNX series. Some people see that choice as a good thing. My main problem with manual safeties is that they are there at all. It's not just an academic concern. There have been actual cases in which defensive encounters were lost due to fiddling with a safety under less than ideal conditions.

The quick answer is usually "just keep the safety off" but how easy is it to accidentally bump on under rough conditions? Looking at video reviews, the XDE looks more susceptible to that than the FNX but I'd have to get one in my hand to see. A key thing about defensive encounters is that you really can't control a lot of the variables. So you have to control the ones you can. Not having features like manual safeties and magazine disconnects, or having guns be easily convertible to "decocker only" (like the PX4), is one way to do that.
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Old April 16, 2019, 11:52 AM   #21
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Beretta 81 series, if you want thin 85 but my choice is 84 or more precisely Browning BDA. Double stack will give you 14 rounds of .380 acp a few ozs heaver than my Shield9.


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Old April 16, 2019, 12:56 PM   #22
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I think the XDE is marketed to people new to pistols who want an easy to rack slide and the veneer of safety. The slide is a little easier to rack and all the operation modes give options to explore. It is not my cup of tea, but then neither was the Governor/Judge and they sold very well.
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Old April 16, 2019, 07:32 PM   #23
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For a DA/SA operating system, I haven't found a micro that I like but do have a Sig P225A1 that I like a lot...but with an 8+1 capacity, it has a limited following in today's line up of 9mm's. It's grip is just so comfortable that I shoot it better than any other Sig I own, (P220, P290, P226 Mk25, & M11A1)

But if you can get past the DA/SA requirement, I'd strongly recommend Sig's P365, with it's 10+1 capacity and superb striker type trigger...despite its teething problems, the guns now leaving the Sig works are superb for carry. Mine is accurate (read sub 1.5" gps at 15 yds from a Weaver Stance), has a great trigger, and has been 100% malfunction free for 950 rounds now.
Best regards, Rod
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Old April 16, 2019, 10:30 PM   #24
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Yea I have 3 Makarov"s love them. I have a Russian,Bulgarian & a East German. I like the East German the best. I do carry them as bug's. I have some really good Russian milsurp ammo 109gr,FMJ that's really hot that I use as my carry load. It's better then any of the new ammo in 9x18 out there.
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Old April 16, 2019, 11:01 PM   #25
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For a DA/SA operating system, I haven't found a micro that I like but do have a Sig P225A1 that I like a lot...but with an 8+1 capacity, it has a limited following in today's line up of 9mm's. It's grip is just so comfortable that I shoot it better than any other Sig I own...
As far as anyone knocking an 8+1 capacity, going single-stack necessarily means lower capacity. Double stacks need more width by definition. Does the P365 use an intermediate method of stacking?

Even though the P239 and P225 are a little wider and heavier than the target size and weight here, they really are nice little guns. Are either of these still in production?
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