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Old April 14, 2019, 04:06 PM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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Active Shooter Drills Traumatizing Kids

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ac...cid=spartandhp

While I don't necessarily believe that children should have 100% care-free lives. After all, learning dangers and safety is part of growing up, but it would seem that some of the active shooter drills are potentially overboard for some younger children.

On top of that, some drills in general seem to be inappropriate across the board. Indiana stupidly ran drills with some sort of pellet guns (Airsoft?) and shot some teachers, execution style, in the heads, raising whelps and breaking skin. That is utterly preposterous. https://www.theindychannel.com/news/...ning-ista-says

I know we are still feeling our way through the development of programs, but preparations/simulations should be age appropriate and they certainly should be safely performed.
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Old April 14, 2019, 06:11 PM   #2
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Active shooter training should be realistic. The only three things that are going to stop one is the shooter runs out of targets, ammo or a good guy with a gun intervenes. My idea of active shooter training is engage and destroy.
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Old April 14, 2019, 06:22 PM   #3
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Last I checked, arming school kids isn't going to be considered viable. No doubt 6 year old Bobby, and 7 year old Jeanine would be willing to have your back, but that isn't how it works in today's world.
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Old April 14, 2019, 06:45 PM   #4
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Last I checked, arming school kids isn't going to be considered viable. No doubt 6 year old Bobby, and 7 year old Jeanine would be willing to have your back, but that isn't how it works in today's world.
Ya think? How about 25 year old Suzi the teacher? Look, when Satan comes in the door you are a victim or you are taking the fight to him.

Spin it however you want.
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Old April 14, 2019, 07:26 PM   #5
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Maybe we could just pretend it never happened. Or pretend that gun laws stop criminals.
It's a shame that kids have to be scared. But what is the alternative? Bad guys exist and all that is done is make excuses for them. Complacency is the problem, not traumatizing children. Why is it that these mental rejects are never stopped, jailed or watched but when they finally go off the rails people start saying "Oh he was never right, I knew something like this would happen someday...etc."
The real problem is ignoring the REAL PROBLEM and hoping the poo never hits the fan.

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Old April 15, 2019, 08:08 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by MoArk Willy View Post
Maybe we could just pretend it never happened. Or pretend that gun laws stop criminals.
It's a shame that kids have to be scared. But what is the alternative? Bad guys exist and all that is done is make excuses for them. Complacency is the problem, not traumatizing children. Why is it that these mental rejects are never stopped, jailed or watched but when they finally go off the rails people start saying "Oh he was never right, I knew something like this would happen someday...etc."
The real problem is ignoring the REAL PROBLEM and hoping the poo never hits the fan.
Except for the due process part, that's what 'red flag laws' are intended to do..BUT....

and
Quote:
Ya think? How about 25 year old Suzi the teacher? Look, when Satan comes in the door you are a victim or you are taking the fight to him.
Suzie 'taking the fight to him'...
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Old April 15, 2019, 08:21 AM   #7
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Suzie 'taking the fight to him'...
How about Suzie locking the door to her classroom and when he forces his way in she pops him.

Do you have a better idea or are you just trolling?
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Old April 15, 2019, 09:24 AM   #8
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How about Suzie locking the door to her classroom and when he forces his way in she pops him.

Do you have a better idea or are you just trolling?
I think you are overstating the 'skill' and determination of 'Suzie', the typical teacher of today, is all.

'Taking the fight to him', 'she pops him'..YOU probably would be trained and motivated to 'take the fight to him', and then 'pop him'..but 'Suzie'?
My grand kids, in a pretty small elementary school(Pre-K through 5th) would be better served by a resource officer than 'Suzie'..IMHO..
AND allowing 'us' to legally EDC when we are picking up our 6 and 8 year olds after school.
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Old April 15, 2019, 10:00 AM   #9
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It's a shame that kids have to be scared. But what is the alternative?
I think it comes down to age appropriate training. You don't have to terrify the kids to get them to learn the skills needed to bunker in a classroom. The faculty and staff for such young children can (and some do) get some training without the children in place.
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Old April 15, 2019, 11:30 AM   #10
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the "active shooter" training offered to teachers, staff and kids is not intended to be commando training. Its often intended to foster a mindset where thoughtful action is preferred to giving in to despair. If you think about it now rather than when you hear gunfire, you may be able navigate certain elements of decision making much faster. The bottom line is that those in danger may benefit from accepting that there are things they can do to help themselves and not simply sit there waiting on someone else to save them. In theory, doing something to add moments, seconds and minutes to the time it takes a badguy to carry out evil deeds.. to create obstacles, challenge their resolve, create difficulties or potentially thwarting their plans altogether can make all the difference in the world. In order to do any of that you may first have a willingness to act and have come to terms with what you are willing to do. If you do that NOW you may not have to dwell on it as bad thing are unfolding around you. You may also benefit from having a method of making decisions by having considered likely options ahead of time via training. It can be an exercise in overcoming certain mental hurdles as well as the human condition.

Until every school becomes a tactically defended outpost with a cadre of armed - tactically trained protection professionals, armed teachers, armed janitors and armed lunchroom ladies,.. you have to work with what you have. Whining about why every classroom doesn't have a Jason Bourne as a teacher is not likely going to help anyone.

This stuff is awareness level training which CAN likely help. I suggest that people consider it within the light it was created and stop trying to critique it as you would a guns of navarone operation. If critique is necessary, conduct it within the correct context and within the spirit in which is was designed and not within the confines of what you would like it to be.
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Old April 15, 2019, 12:04 PM   #11
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I participated in fire drills and in "duck and cover" drills in school, and I wasn't traumatized. These drills need to be structured in such a way that they don't leave kids terrified. It is much more important that the teachers know what to do and how to react to different scenarios than that pre-school and elementary-age kids do so. Too many people fail to consider such possibilities, and thus fail to have a plan. Having a plan in place and having teachers, administrators, and staff aware and trained is the important step.

Quote:
I think you are overstating the 'skill' and determination of 'Suzie', the typical teacher of today, is all.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as a typical teacher, and if there is, you may be underestimating him or her. I spent 15 years as a volunteer in local schools, 9 at a local high school, and I was there so much that some teachers assumed I was on staff and asked me how I got out of faculty meetings. Some teachers go through the motions and collect a paycheck, some teach with passion but wouldn't know how to react to an emergency without training, and the best love their kids and would march to the gates of hell for them. There are more of the latter than you might think, and given the opportunity they would defend their kids with a ferocity that I would not want to face.

(I was one of the latter even as a volunteer, but laws prevented me from carrying for the protection of my kids, much to my frustration at the time.)
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Old April 15, 2019, 12:38 PM   #12
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I believe, if conducted the wrong way, an active shooter drill could be traumatic to kids. These drills should be about a plan of action not a theatrical "shock and awe" on a child's senses. I think they are necessary. The threat IS real. I think the world is experiencing PTSD of sorts in relation to the attacks that have happened and the possibility of more to come. There was a story a couple weeks ago of an active shooter at Michigan State. It was somebody popping balloons. People are scared. You can't blame them.
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Old April 15, 2019, 01:07 PM   #13
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"...and I wasn't traumatized..." You got to watch Bugs Bunny, Daffy and Elmer. Plus all those westerns and W.W. II movies on Saturdays. All of which would be banned today as being too violent.
Everybody seems to think today's kids are stupid and incapable of dealing with life. It's more about the adults being like that.
I wouldn't trust the teachers(who I think invented ADD to explain why a kid can graduate high school without being able to spell, read or write a sentence.) I know and/or was taught by, at least most of 'em, with any kind of firearm. It was bad enough they had that 'strap' to beat us with in grade school. If they'd have had these "drills" when I was a kid, it'd have been a laugh riot for most of us. Anything to get out of class. Even being dragged to church.
"...People are scared..." People are being trained to be scared. Video of the assorted school attacks repeatedly show the kids coming out with their hands up like they're the criminal will do that.
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Old April 15, 2019, 01:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Active Shooter Drills Traumatizing Kids
File that under the category of "D'uh."

Of course it is, and it will continue to until legislators, administrators, and society as a whole do those things that will actually reduce these incidents, such as increased access for mental health care, providing armed defenders at schools, ending media glorification of attackers, requiring districts to report violent offenders to the police, and providing the funding necessary to provide security through design at school facilities. Gun control and "thoughts and prayers" aren't going to fix this problem, and while these drills may help in some ways, they won't stop them either.

And who can blame kids for being traumatized by all this. Their job is to go to a safe facility to learn. This stuff shouldn't be on the minds of students, but on the minds of the adults who are failing them miserably.
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Old April 15, 2019, 05:24 PM   #15
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I think you are overstating the 'skill' and determination of 'Suzie', the typical teacher of today, is all.

'Taking the fight to him', 'she pops him'..YOU probably would be trained and motivated to 'take the fight to him', and then 'pop him'..but 'Suzie'?
My grand kids, in a pretty small elementary school(Pre-K through 5th) would be better served by a resource officer than 'Suzie'..IMHO..
AND allowing 'us' to legally EDC when we are picking up our 6 and 8 year olds after school.
I think you may be understating it.

Several teachers have placed themselves into harms way to try and stop school shooters unsuccessfully, had they been allowed to be armed things may have been different.

School resource officers? You mean like they had in Florida?

We should look at the Israeli model. They had a school shooting in 1974 and none since, why do you think that is?
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Old April 15, 2019, 05:41 PM   #16
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I’m a recently retired high school teacher and have some observations:

* if it’s true some @sses shot a few teachers with airsoft guns without their full consent, I hope those idiots get sued so bad all they can afford to keep are their boxer shorts.

* crap like this does go on and it’s yet another case of bullying and abuse and why teachers need a union.

* if you can’t trust your teachers to assess kids learning (even a student teacher has a minimum of 4 years formal education) why suddenly trust them to confront armed intruders?

* until you have spent 6 months teaching or volunteering every day in a school you don’t have the least idea what it’s like in that school. You don’t. You have absolutely not a clue.

* I had an entire 3 credit college course on “what is the mission of the schools?” Meeting 3 times a week for 5 months. That covers philosophies from Aristotle to Henry Ford to John Dewey. We study stuff like that for years and then live and breathe it. If you think the mission of the schools can be written in less than 300 pages, you haven’t been thinking about it long or deep enough.

We have fire drills, tornado drills, bomb threat drills, active shooter drills.

Start running idiot rambos in the hall with airsoft guns is ... inconceivably stupid. Whoever authorized that should be run out of town.

Just when I think the world can’t get any more stupid, a man earns the Presidential Medal of Freedom for playing golf well.

I need a drink.

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Old April 15, 2019, 05:43 PM   #17
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We should look at the Israeli model. They had a school shooting in 1974 and none since, why do you think that is?
Huh? I could have sworn that the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva at Kiryat Moshe was in Israel. 8 killed, 11 more wounded, plus the shooter was killed by the responding police officers some 10 minutes later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre

But to answer your question...Because they live in a virtual war zone with a militarized society that suffers regular terrorist and occasional military-related attacks that America doesn't want to duplicate.
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Old April 15, 2019, 07:51 PM   #18
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My daughter is a special needs teacher in a special needs school and has two masters. She does not want to be armed at school either, but it is basically on perpetual lock down.


Quote:
Huh? I could have sworn that the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva at Kiryat Moshe was in Israel. 8 killed, 11 more wounded, plus the shooter was killed by the responding police officers some 10 minutes later.
Darn, I missed one...... How does it compare to the US?
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Old April 15, 2019, 08:37 PM   #19
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I was involved in an "Active Shooter Training" at a K-5 grade school in the county I live in as EMS and traffic management. It was done on a Saturday morning, no students present, but all teachers and office staff in their rooms, just like it was a Monday through Friday school day. Mater of fact, it was requested that no one under the age of 18 even be a spectator to the event. That, IMO, is the way it should be done. There were two SWAT teams, local, county and state law enforcement involved. In the end, the bad guy took a bullet to the forehead (paint ball gun). 5 to 10 year old kids do not need to see things like this. I'd even go so far as to say high school aged kids, even up to 17 years old don't need to see this. But, they did use select teen aged kids as actors to play wounded victims.
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Old April 15, 2019, 09:40 PM   #20
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It's about doing it well. You have to tailor the exercise to the participants. You don't teach kindergarten student "run, hide, fight" and you don't limit faculty training to sprinting away and leaving their students.

Stinkeypete, who here proposed mandatory arming? (That would be foolish.). The thing I don't get is why society can entrust teachers to educate their children, but won't ALLOW them to effectively defend them. Multiple (disarmed by law) teachers have tried and died. We can at least give them the option of having a legal firearm.
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Old April 15, 2019, 09:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarandTd
I believe, if conducted the wrong way, an active shooter drill could be traumatic to kids. These drills should be about a plan of action not a theatrical "shock and awe" on a child's senses.
I agree with the above statement. In particular, the ages of the children involved should (in fact, must) be taken into account. Fire drills are an example. Fire drills are required by law, but when a school conducts a fire drill they don't set "fake" fires in the corridor, fill up the building with acrid smoke, and then expose the kids to smoke and heat on their way out of the building to their designated point of assembly.
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:27 AM   #22
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stupidly ran drills with some sort of pellet guns (Airsoft?) and shot some teachers, execution style, in the heads, raising whelps and breaking skin. That is utter preposterous.
Good land. How is such stupidity thought up and then carried out? Several people had to be in on planning this...how is it nobody said 'this is a really awful idea.'

Thanks DNS for posting this.
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Old April 16, 2019, 12:40 AM   #23
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Here's another thought, what are the actual odds of an active shooter showing up at a school.

Quote:
Researching a forthcoming book, Fox found that in the years from 1999 to 2013, homicides, bicycle accidents, firearm accidents, falls and swimming pool drownings accounted for 31,827 of the total 32,464 reported deaths. Deaths in school shootings numbered 154, or fewer than 0.5%.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...on/1063337001/

I am in favor of being prepared and having drills but let's use some common sense and perspective when doing it.

The above article also talks about folk getting ballistic panels for their kid back packs and a middle school in Alabama asking that kids bring an 8 oz canned food item to throw at an active shooter.

Our entire lives are balancing acts of preparations for things that might or might not happen. Let's be smart about what we do.
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Old April 16, 2019, 07:46 AM   #24
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Lighten up guys, a couple of goof-balls acted with a lack of prudence. It has been handled. Its not like their behavior was outlined in source material as a proper method to conduct the training. This is not a national emergency.

If you want to talk about trauma.. intercepting a kids folded notes to a girl they fancy and reading them in front of the class.. that is traumatizing.
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Old April 16, 2019, 09:22 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
I think you may be understating it.

Several teachers have placed themselves into harms way to try and stop school shooters unsuccessfully, had they been allowed to be armed things may have been different.

School resource officers? You mean like they had in Florida?

We should look at the Israeli model. They had a school shooting in 1974 and none since, why do you think that is?
Don't think so..from knowledge of and conversations with elementary school teachers.

No doubt and a big maybe but again, the 'average' teacher, if they DO choose to be armed, not sure they will effectively 'take it to the bad guy' and save the day. One thing for certain, school shooters are not deterred by armed people around.

Nope, not like in Florida..

Israel is a militarized society from top to bottom. PLUS rather small and certainly less diverse than the US..
Quote:
After a massacre at Dunblane Primary School in 1996, there have been no school shootings in the UK. CLAIM. After a gunman killed schoolchildren and a teacher in Scotland in 1996, the UK banned handguns; no school shootings have taken place there since.
Another poor example, IMHO.
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