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Old March 18, 2019, 07:18 PM   #26
sevt_chevelle
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So what are better options then the gen 2 pst that don't cost 2 grand?
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Old March 18, 2019, 07:58 PM   #27
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Burris Veracity ffp. I love my 5-20x and picked it over the viper pst as the glass looked better to my eyes.

I think these can be had for around $800 now.
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Old March 25, 2019, 05:06 AM   #28
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Reticle is way too fine and illumination is way too dim - I'd pass on this scope.
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Old April 8, 2019, 06:58 AM   #29
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The Viper PST is a very good scope( 1st or 2nd. gen). The second focal plane will have an advantage in long range shooting. Vortex also makes the standard Viper 20x variable with 50mm obj. that is a great scope.
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Old April 8, 2019, 11:03 AM   #30
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Thanks for the reply BeeShooter, have seen people knock on Vortex. But then again, everyone has their own preference/likes/dislikes. I don't know much but learning as I go, so I am not knocking on anyone. Luckily it was on sale, so I took advantage of it. So far for me, that is the "expensive" scope I have.

Do you mind if I ask how a sfp scope is a plus in long range vs a ffp? At the moment, I am not going any further than 200yds. Limited in distance at the range and I am not ready to go past 200yds. Thanks again.
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Old April 8, 2019, 11:17 AM   #31
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Depending on how fine your reticle is--in a ffp scope it will scale up proportionately (hopefully) but this also means the lines will get thicker as the magnification goes up--some people prefer sfp on higher power scopes for that reason. By the same token, ffp scopes that have "super fine" reticles (I've heard that "charge" leveled at vortex scopes before, though I personally feel they are a good value for what you get, though I don't have one myself) can make the reticle hard to see in lower light/lower magnifications. Since you're not anticipating shooting beyond 200 yds--I would instead invest your money in getting a low to moderate magnification scope with wide field of view and excellent glass and light transmission characteristics; most of your common rifle cartridges will be within or close to point blank ranging so the need for something like a ffp scope is almost irrelevant. Just my opinions
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Last edited by stagpanther; April 8, 2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old April 8, 2019, 11:35 AM   #32
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What would be your recommendation?

I am looking to get a 223 left bolt action rifle for my son. Still not sure what to get as I haven't seen much options at the stores near me, but guess a little google search would sure yield some good results. Eventually when it does go through, will put a Vortex Tactical Diamondback off an existing rifle and will need to get a new one eventually.
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Old April 8, 2019, 11:47 AM   #33
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That's highly subjective, and my 5.56. weapons are AR's so I would lean towards a (at most) 4x tactical style scope for the advantages of quick-acquire--even an unmagnified red dot is appropriate unless your quest is for sub .5 MOA (it is for me, so in some instances it does pay to have higher magnification, but I intend to push my rifles to maximum ranges and 95% of my shooting is paper-punching). Leupold for example in their moderate to top tier scopes have outstanding glass clarity and light transmission characteristics to name just one.
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Old April 8, 2019, 12:15 PM   #34
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Got it, thanks.
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Old April 10, 2019, 06:59 AM   #35
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Quote:
It's a good scope. I have one with the mil holdover reticle.
I suggest you get the first focal plane version, however.
Agree on FFP. I have three of the PST scopes. But mine are the Mil/Mil variants.

It's easier to range and calculate hold-overs with a 'pure' Mil/Mil system than the hybrid Mil/MOA set-ups you find on most 'tactical' LR scopes, where the reticle you're looking at is in Mils, but your dails are MOA-based.

Whether it's a range toy or for LR competitions, most serious shooters are choosing quality optics set up in Mil/Mil.
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Old April 10, 2019, 03:47 PM   #36
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How much difficult is the Mil/Moa set up? Would it make a big difference if the range is known such as a range? This won't be used for hunting just bench rest range.

That is something I will have to pay attention next time I buy a scope. Thanks for the reply.
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Old April 10, 2019, 04:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
How much difficult is the Mil/Moa set up? Would it make a big difference if the range is known such as a range? This won't be used for hunting just bench rest range.
For an hour or so at the range on a lazy Sunday afternoon, just banging away at bullseyes at the known range of 100yds, it doesn't matter.

However, if you're going to practice (or in competitions need to use) range estimations and/or hold-overs, a 'Mil is a Mil,' as they say.

The Mil/MOA hybrid optics require you to 'translate' the Mils (the measurement unit(s) you see on the reticle) into MOA 'clicks' on the dails - for dialing up or down, left or right. That's especially important as the ranges increases - 400yds, 600yds, and further out.

The Mil/Mil optics simplify 'range est' into either a quick holder-over shot, or if you have time to dail up/down, then no translation is needed between different units of measurements. What you 'see' in Mils is what you dial. Again, a Mil is a Mil.

Sunday afternoon 'snipers' who don't know any better, and the deer-camp Fuddley-types who don't really care, will just point and shoot, ... and at longer distances they'll miss.

Again, for what might be called 'simple plinking' at 100-yds, the Mil/Mil versus Mil/MOA difference doesn't matter.

For serious shooters, to include real-world military snipers laying it on the line in bad places, it does.
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Old April 10, 2019, 09:03 PM   #38
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I found this years ago which helped me understand the differences and how they work:

Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA
1. So I fire, see my miss went 4MIL/MOA low
2. I reach up dial in 4MIL/MOA elevation
3. Hold center on target and it is a hit.

Now if your scope was MIL/MOA there would have to be some conversion done in there some place to get your adjustment.

MOA/MIL

1. Fire see miss measured at 4mil in scope reticle
2. Convert MIL to MOA to find the needed correction.
3. Hope my math was right and dial in correction
4. Hold center on target and hit.
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Old April 11, 2019, 05:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
* * * Now if your scope was MIL/MOA there would have to be some conversion done in there some place to get your adjustment.
MOA/MIL:
1. Fire see miss measured at 4mil in scope reticle
2.Convert MIL to MOA to find the needed correction.
3. Hope my math was right and dial in correction

4. Hold center on target and hit.
Exactly.

The Mil to MOA conversion isn't less accurate (unless your 'head-math' screws it up, #2 & #3 above), but it is slower to use under field conditions than Mil/Mil.
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Old April 11, 2019, 09:58 AM   #40
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As was said - the SFP scope doesn't increase its reticle size with an increase of power. MOA scopes are a bit easier to sight-in more accurately(cross-hair to impact) due to the number units available. Example- One click(1/10th mil) on a Mil scope will move the bullet impact or cross-hair about a 1/3rd of an inch. Where as, generally, one click of windage on a MOA scope will move 1/4 in.(all at 100 yards)
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Old April 11, 2019, 10:21 AM   #41
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Quote:
As was said - the SFP scope doesn't increase its reticle size with an increase of power. MOA scopes are a bit easier to sight-in more accurately(cross-hair to impact) due to the number units available. Example- One click(1/10th mil) on a Mil scope will move the bullet impact or cross-hair about a 1/3rd of an inch. Where as, generally, one click of windage on a MOA scope will move 1/4 in.(all at 100 yards)
Good point--with a mil mil at longer ranges generally I'm better off doing a hold-over as opposed to click adjustments as it sometimes ends up a game of going back and forth across the intended point of impact. My next 1000 yd + capable scope will most likely be a 1/8th MOA (with LOADS of elevation/windage).
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Old April 11, 2019, 01:48 PM   #42
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I have two 12 FVs, one in .223 and the other in 6.5mm Creedmoor.
They take any single mounts made for a Savage short action or any two piece mounts made for a Savage.

Since the 12 FV has a hidden mag, you will need all the space you can get to press rounds into the mag.
I put two piece mounts on both of mine to keep the single piece mount from blocking some of the space above the extraction port that I needed to use to get the rounds into the hidden mag.

Because you have a 12 FV, I would recommend the two piece mounts over a single piece mount, since the 30mm Vortex Viper tube will take up more space than a 1-inch tube scope.
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Old April 11, 2019, 02:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Good point--with a mil mil at longer ranges generally I'm better off doing a hold-over as opposed to click adjustments as it sometimes ends up a game of going back and forth across the intended point of impact.
Don't confuse the choice between manually dialing or 'hold-over' shooting, which relies on having figured out at what distances the smaller horizontal dashes on the verticle reticle line match target impacts at known ranges (300yds; 450yds) beyond your base zero (e.g., 100-yds) with the Mil/Mil versus Mil/MOA hybrid issue.

Known holdovers on the reticle can work with Mil/Mil, MOA/MOA, and the hybrid scopes. Holding-over and firing is a question of speed - whereas dailing up takes time which you may not have in the field. Shooting casually at the range or in some LR competitions is different, so you may have time to calculate and dail.

Holdover shooting is what you do when you don't have time to dail. Knowing your reticle's hold-overs is especially useful in hunting where a critter appears beyond your base zero (100-yds), since it may not wait around for you to dail.

In fact, on deer, hogs, and larger size game, it's even easier if you've previously determined the Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) of your particular rifle/cartridge combination. Say your MPBR for a 150gn 30-06 from a 22" barrel is 300-yds, the distance within which your bullet will not rise nor fall more than 3" either way.

Just plant the crosshair directly on the critter and shoot if it's within 300-yds. No holdover needed.
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Old April 12, 2019, 10:56 PM   #44
ninosdemente
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Agtman, thanks for the reply. Will have to pay attention to this next time I get around getting a new scope.

------

Ed308, thanks. Now I see how that would/is a pitb. Seems like I may regret buying the scope a little now, lol. (agtman, lets hope don't need conversion in field, LOL.)

------

BeeShooter, got it. Thanks.
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Old April 12, 2019, 10:59 PM   #45
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Rimfire5, the Savage 12FV, does have a two piece mount. Unfortunately already have the 1 piece mount for the 6.5. But in another thread was asking for help on getting a new stock that allows magazine feed. Do want to convert to magazine feed for the 6.5 creed rifle.
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Old April 13, 2019, 02:49 PM   #46
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ninosdemente, I did something very similar. check your bolt spacing, these are both 4.4". CDI will inlet your stock free. I did it myself to a Bobby Hart LRT stock for the PTG bottom metal.

http://www.cdiprecisiongunworksstore...m-stevens-200/
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...aluminum-black
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Old April 14, 2019, 08:28 AM   #47
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Bedlamite, thanks for the link. Looks like an alternative for the .223 Savage 12FV. Thanks again.
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Old April 15, 2019, 06:55 AM   #48
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MRAD in FFP for $599 for anyone interested...

https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-vip...43128-new.aspx
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Old April 15, 2019, 03:50 PM   #49
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Wonder if I can return my scope at Cabelas? Lol.

------

The scope has EBR-1 MOA and the turrets are MOA. That is considered MOA/MOA. I know may seem like a dumb question, just the talk about MIL/MOA, MIL/MIL above threw me off a bit. Thanks.
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Old April 15, 2019, 05:38 PM   #50
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Mil/mil and moa/moa refers to making sure the measurements (subtenstions) inside the scope match with the adjustments on the turrets.

You don’t want to have an MOA reticle then have the adjustment turrets in MIL. Then you have 2 different u it’s of measure to learn. If you use the hash marks in the reticle they will be different then if you make adjustments using the turrets.

It would be like measuring something in inches then adjusting in millimeters.
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