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Old July 5, 2019, 10:55 AM   #1
Mattj4867
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Garand hiccup

Hey everyone, I’ve just received my m1 Garand from the CMP. I’ve reloaded for it using 42.3gr of Varget under a 150 gr fmj and it did not eject at all. I’ve then Loaded up some 43.5gr and 44.3 gr and the ejection got closer but still did not function correctly. My question is this rifle supposed to be cycling the loads? I’ve disassembled the rifle and cleaned all of the cosmoline out of it, so I know it’s pretty clean. I should also note that i am experiencing some gas hitting my hand that is closest to the barrel, is this normal? Thanks
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Old July 5, 2019, 11:19 AM   #2
mehavey
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30-06/150gr/44grVARGET is two grain under Hodgdon's MIN, and barely 32,000 psi
OOC, where'd that load come from?
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Old July 5, 2019, 11:36 AM   #3
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This data is coming from the Hornady book 10th edition under the 30-06 m1 Garand section
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Old July 5, 2019, 11:53 AM   #4
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Looking at the edition/that bullet/that powder/44.2gr/that OAL, things are still under 34,000psi/~2,450fps
The rifle's talkin' to`ya: It don't like it.

Go over to the CMP Forum. None (save one) are under 46 grains (standard MIN), and most are 47.

If you have a chronograph, aim for 2,700*-ish/reliable ejection with that bullet/powder and lock it down.




* Approximate (since military specs are not exactly at the muzzle) Get some HXP/Greek from CMP or, wherever, and approach duplicating that reading

Last edited by mehavey; July 5, 2019 at 12:03 PM.
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Old July 5, 2019, 12:34 PM   #5
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It should cycle with that load. Is it lubed properly, any issues with stock fitment? Is it a UGGI stock or a new production one? Sounds like you have something dragging or not lubed.

And yes getting some gas out the rear of the gas cylinder will happen.
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Old July 5, 2019, 12:44 PM   #6
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It is all original receiver is a 1943 manufacturer. Bolt is a 1940 and barrel is an unissued 1944 with readings of 1 on the muzzle and 2 on the throat. The op rod appears to be in good condition as well. The stock is a USGI and fits perfectly. Everything on the rifle is lubed with balistol. When cycling the bolt by hand it does not feel like anything is dragging. I am using CCI primers and a mix of Winchester, Remington, and federal brass.
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Old July 5, 2019, 12:51 PM   #7
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Lube it up with grease, Garands run better on it than oil.
This is a good reference what to grease and where.
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-grease
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Old July 5, 2019, 12:54 PM   #8
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And bumping up load to 46 grains may help, the gas cylinder and op-rod tip my be on the low side of the specs.
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Old July 5, 2019, 01:00 PM   #9
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Thanks for the replies, I’ll try what you guys tell me and will let y’all know the results
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Old July 5, 2019, 08:36 PM   #10
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Is the op rod spring in the rifle the same one that came with it from the CMP? Weak or kinked springs can cause cycling problems.

You can eliminate a weak spring as a variable by ordering and installing a new USGI-spec op rod spring from Orion 7. He sells them individually and in packs on Amazon.

Then, once you've got the Orion7 spring installed, head back to the range and see if the problem recurs. But this time, instead of testing it with your handloads, try first shooting a few clips of M2 30-06 ball ammo (like the HXP stuff that CMP used to sell) or some commercial equivalent ammo that's 'Garand-Safe,' like the PPU '06 ball ammo. The PPU brass is also reloadable.

If everything runs fine with the new spring and factory ball ammo, then you can re-assess the dosage on your handloads and deterimine how much is needed to get reliable cycling.

Last edited by agtman; July 5, 2019 at 08:45 PM.
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Old July 6, 2019, 09:05 AM   #11
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Hodgdon web site lists starting load of 46 grains of Varget under 150 grain bullet has 42,000 psi. Spec max 30-06 pressure is 60,000 psi (50,000 cup).

The rifle should cycle if the spring is weak enough. Normal port pressure is 10,000 to 11,000 psi. That starting load may produce only 2/3 to 3/4 as much port pressure

Weak op rod springs let the bolt slam to its stop much faster with normal loads. Sometimes cracking the receiver like max loads of slow powders under heavy bullets do with normal springs and 15,000+ psi port pressure

Note: Do not confuse early arsenal and commercial 30-06 pressure copper crusher spec of 50,000 psi with modern piezo transducer spec of 60,000 psi.

Last edited by Bart B.; July 6, 2019 at 09:43 AM.
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Old July 6, 2019, 10:00 AM   #12
mehavey
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*^^^ what Bart said ^^^*
................




postscriptum: QL tells me 46gr Varget/OP's bullet/OAL provides 10.5ksi at 18" point. "should" function.



.

Last edited by mehavey; July 6, 2019 at 10:12 AM.
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Old July 6, 2019, 12:17 PM   #13
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To further confuse the issue, Hornady's 7th edition in the M1 Garand section lists 42.3gr Varget as starting load with 150gr and velocity at 2400fps.

Lists 46.2gr as max, with velocity 2600fps.

BOTH are significantly below the GI spec of 2740+/-

Personally, I would use the Varget for something else and use 4895 for the 06 Garand loads. Your call.
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Old July 7, 2019, 10:24 AM   #14
Mattj4867
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Well I’ve done more research and went ahead and bought a cut oprod (mine isn’t cut) and a new spring. I’ve also got imr 4895 on the way and some Mobil 1 grease to lube up the action.
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Old July 7, 2019, 10:43 AM   #15
Bart B.
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Varget and IMR4320 are virtually the same speed. Both have worked well with 180 grain bullets in Garands.

IMR4064 proved most accurate in Garands for 165 to 175 grain bullets using weighed charges with 1/10th grain spread. Arsenals used IMR4895 because it metered more uniform charge weights in high speed loading machines.
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Old July 7, 2019, 01:12 PM   #16
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The OP might want to got himself a copy of Hornady's Service Rifle data.

That data is contained in their current Reloading book as well as in an abbreviated little S.R. booklet they give away free on Commercial Row during the Nat'l Rifle Matches at Camp Perry. It covers all the 'service rifles,' including the M1 Garand. The load data features Varget and is very conservative.

Varget is currently the top choice of shootin'-pros-in-the-know for several reasons. First, it tracks virtually identically to 4064, but is less sensitive to temperature changes in the field, such as can happen not infrequently under Match conditions. It also meters well if you're using one of the automated charging machines so there's less time wasted 'trickling' just to get a consistent charge-weight dispensed.
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Old July 7, 2019, 01:24 PM   #17
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Mehavey,

What does that predict psi is at 22.5 inch down the barrel about where the Garand gas port is?

Last edited by Bart B.; July 7, 2019 at 01:30 PM.
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Old July 7, 2019, 03:30 PM   #18
mehavey
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Aha (I went back to measure my barrel)
(memory is the 2nd thing to go `ya know)

Normalizing Burn Rates to match Hornady's published GARAND Data at MAX:


Pressure Low pressure

Last edited by mehavey; July 7, 2019 at 03:51 PM.
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Old July 7, 2019, 04:33 PM   #19
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If it slides, grease it; if it rotates, oil it.
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Old July 7, 2019, 05:35 PM   #20
Bart B.
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Does Hornady use SAAMI spec pressure and velocity test systems?

I would think they would to qualify Garand loads to have correct port pressure in the 10K psi range

Or, maybe QuickLoad ain't correct.
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Old July 7, 2019, 06:18 PM   #21
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I suggest the op joins the CMP forum. Selling guns is the least of their concerns. They deal with all aspects of shooting US GI guns. That is the mission statement, marksmanship etc,...

I found this
Quote:
According to TM 43-0001-27 30cal ball is loaded with 50gr of 4895. 50k chamber press, 2740 fps @78 ft from the muzzle. 165 grain. The National Match M-72 Which is what I shoot in my M1 is 50gr of 4895 a 173gr boat tail with 50k chamber press and 2640 fps @ 78ft from the muzzle. I hope this info helps
The big risk, is detonation from under loading. IMHO, the proper thing to do, if there is such a thing is to load to spec. Not because the guns cares, but because the spec is tried and true. Be really careful, with the under loads. They was a report of a gun let loose at camp Perry this year. Best guess, under loaded ammo.

http://forums.thecmp.org/index.php

For good quality factory ammo, not match grade but good quality, I suggest Federal American Eagle with the words "Garand" on the box. No worry and sometimes it can be had for a promotional deal.
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Old July 7, 2019, 07:32 PM   #22
mehavey
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TM 43-0001-27 page 9-1 says 50,000 psi (I always wince when I see psi -- vice CUP -- in a manual/spec more than a quarter century old)

But be that as it way....

50gr IMR 4895/sierra 150gr FMJBT @ 3.4" OAL/Burn Rate adjusted to exactly match the Tech Manual's 2740fps @25yds --> 46,000/9,700psi chamber/port pressures.

And since the army grabs a powder/mixes it until it generates the correct speed/function within/below chamber spec pressure max, I feel pretty good w/ QL's results.


That said: It would appear that Hornady is waaaaaay below spec

Last edited by mehavey; July 7, 2019 at 08:21 PM.
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Old July 7, 2019, 07:59 PM   #23
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^^^ Well said!! ^^^

My ordinary icing on the nice cake above is an accuracy spec also has to be met; it's near washbtub size at 600 yards. Garands would be more accurate with 1:12 twist barrels.

Last edited by Bart B.; July 8, 2019 at 08:10 AM.
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Old July 7, 2019, 08:31 PM   #24
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For M2 ball that would be 7.5" mean radius max avg at 600 yards.

Don't know about you but my washtub is quite a bit bigger than 7.5"
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Old July 7, 2019, 08:46 PM   #25
mehavey
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That's -- effectively -- a 15" circle where half are inside/half outside.
(and since a washtub is 20", that's not bad comparison)
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