Reloading for .40 S&W

Smiter_Co · November 21, 2007, 10:36 AM

I was reading my 2nd edition Lee reloading book last night and I noticed a footnote for the .40 S&W that you should not reload that round for the,
"Glock and similar guns because the bullet is not fully supported because of interference by the feeding ramp."

I have several other reloading books and none of them mention anything like that. It's also the only round in the book that mentions anything like that in regards to Glock or any gun except for the .45-70 Govt. loads needing to be sure the gun is in good shape.

I shoot a .40 S&W 23 C and I'm hoping that this is just one of Lee's quirks.

**Unclenick** · November 21, 2007, 01:03 PM

I think they are referring to the fact that some guns have the bottom edge of the chamber cut slightly forward and chamfered to match the loading ramp. That slight forward relief along the bottom edge of the chamber exposes a short portion of the case brass to the outside world when a cartridge is chambered. A barrel of this type is said to have an "unsupported chamber", even though they actually mean a small portion of the cartridge case is unsupported. The .45 ACP 1911 in standard form is an example of an unsupported chamber. Custom gunsmiths and some manufacturers and the aftermarket offer barrels with an integral feed ramp (the ramp is part of the barrel rather than the frame) which allows them to move the top edge of the ramp back enough to fully support the case. That barrel is said to have a "fully supported" chamber, even though, again, it is support for the case by the chamber and not of the chamber they are talking about.

One result of having an "unsupported" chamber is that full pressure loads tend to cause a bulge in the side of the case in the unsupported area. You can resize it and in the .45 ACP we do that if it isn't too extreme, as some +P loads will cause. The .40 S&W, however, is a higher pressure load than the .45 ACP, and I expect there is fear that the bulge will be so great that resized brass will be too weak to be relied upon not to burst if you reload it.

Smiter_Co · November 21, 2007, 01:24 PM

Thanks for the response.

That answer leaves me with a few more questions:

1) Is there any way to visually inspect for or use calipers to determine if the bulge is present?

2) If the bulge isn't there, would it be safe to reload with a reduced charge for target practice?

3) Which manufacturers go with the integral feed ramp? I'm considering the purchase of a .45 ACP in the next year and passing the Glock on to my wife. I was looking at the Springfield Armory .45 because they've come up with a way to have a .45 and a high capacity mag.

This limitation on reloading, however, would not keep me from ordering fresh brass and loading my own.

**Unclenick** · November 21, 2007, 02:24 PM

Integral ramp will be a high end gun. I think STI International offers them. Check their web site or call them. I would call Kimber and ask if they do any? I've forgotten. .45 ACP is enough lower pressure than .40 S&W that unless you are running hot ISPC high power factor loads or a steady diet of +P loads and reloads, you don't really need to go to the integral ramp barrel.

The bulges happen on one side and are apparent to the naked eye. If in doubt, roll a case along a flat surface and watch for change in the light cracks that show.

My guess is that light target loads will be safe even in cases that were bulged a bit by their initial firing. I just don't want to guarantee it. Load some and fire them one-at-a-time wearing glasses and shooting gloves. If they all come out looking fine, you are good to go. I've noticed badly bulged 40 S&W cases at the range, before. These even had a crease where the bulge pressed into the relieved edge of the chamber. I would definitely toss those out.

Watch out for guns with polygon barrels rather than conventional rifling. These apparently don't handle lead bullets well and tend to clog with lead, raising pressure.

Crazy4nitro · November 21, 2007, 06:44 PM

smiter,
I installed a Lone Wolf Barrel with a fully supported Chamber. I reload for my Glock. You can see the case buldge on one side near the rim. it will be slight but noticeable compared to a case fired from a gun with a supported chamber.
I have reloaded Many Many Rounds in my Stock Barrel using FMJ Bullets. I only load downloaded rounds for IDPA style shooting. I'm posting a pic of my Stock Barrel next to my Lone Wolf Barrel. I colored the Case red to ease in viewing the unsupported area. Take Note in the Steeper Ramp angle on the Lone Wolf Barrel on the right. This has NOT caused any feeding issues and I Love the Barrel as I can Now shoot Lead Bullets.

'Nitro

Arub · November 21, 2007, 07:47 PM

I've been loading .40S&W, both 180 and 165 grain bullets, for a pair of Glock 23's for several years. I have recyled the casings many times without a hitch.

Although it is true that the 40S&W is a "high pressure" round and that the Glock's have "unsupported chambers", I have not run across anyone who has had any problems with their home loads. The few "kabooms" I have read and heard about are most likely heavy charges or bullet set back (I have seen some factory loads with the bullets set back too far. This condition will cause extreme pressures when fired). I believe that Lee is engaging in "litigation proofing".

Smiter_Co · November 21, 2007, 10:59 PM

Thanks for the responses.

I think I'm going to start pricing replacement barrels and monitor my brass in the mean time. Thanks for the lead and pic of the Lone Wolf, Nitro. I google'd and found Bar Sto, too. I only saw one review for that manufacturer and the guy needed some machine work to make it feed reliably...for that kind of money, I kind of want to drop it in and go!

No sense in getting rid of the stock barrel either...always good to have replacement parts.

WESHOOT2 · November 23, 2007, 11:06 AM

Having made a few "40 S&W for Glocks", I can offer a few suggestions.

Size all cases (I prefer IMI and R-P, but use them all).
CCI500.
Rainier 180g TCJ-FP.
OAL 1.130+/-.005"
5.8--6.1g Alliant Power Pistol; I use 6.0/6.1g.
LEE Carbide Factory Crimp die; seat bullet then crimp (using this die) separately.
Av = 890--930fps, based on specific gun (this load works in any-and-all so-chambered gun ever attempted, numbering well into the hundreds, including my latest 40 S&W 1911).

Case neck tension is the critical factor, as a bullet being deep-seated during the function cycle WILL raise pressure dramatically, often catastrophically (the dreaded "Glock KB" syndrome, yet NOT isolated to Glock).

Stock barrels are fine fine fine.

WESHOOT2 · November 23, 2007, 11:11 AM

"When in doubt throw it out"

I inspect throughout the loading sequence; I throw away ANYTHING that even offers the slightest hint of a suspect nature.

I can find more brass, ay?

SDDL-UP · November 25, 2007, 03:50 PM

Crazy4nitro,

Nice picture!

I have nothing to back this up, but doesn't glock use a chamber that is in the "large" end of the scale in addition to being less supported in the feed ramp area? Your picture sure looks like the factory Glock barrel is looser than the Lone Wolf one. Have you ever taken measuerments of cases fired out of both barrels?

Thanks!

oldscot3 · November 25, 2007, 05:08 PM

My 40 S&W Browning Hi Power has an integral feed ramp, as does my Para 45 ACP and my AE Witness in 10mm Auto. All quite strong and able to handle the same sort of pressure generated by the 9mm cartridge. The Para Ords are often used to build 45 Super pistols. They can handle +P loads, but keep in mind the standard pressure loads which launch 230gr. bullets at 830fps have a long history of proven effectiveness.

Bullet94 · November 25, 2007, 09:55 PM

I read that Glock has changed their barrels in 40 S&W. The newer barrels have more case support than the old barrels.

K Bob · November 25, 2007, 11:00 PM

You may be right about the new Glocks Bullet94. I checked my chamber like in the picture above and my stock barrel looked to have more support than my Lone Wolf barrel.

Smiter_Co · November 26, 2007, 12:05 AM

Thanks for the load data WESHOOT and the stock barrel endorsement.

After looking at the Lone Wolf, I noticed that they are not ported the same way my 23C barrel is...Bar Sto, too.

panino · November 26, 2007, 01:05 AM

Here is an article with some images of a bulged case from a early Glock 21. If you stay away from the max loads you should be fine.

Crazy4nitro · November 26, 2007, 01:06 AM

SDDL-UP,

I used calipers on my Lone wolf Barrel and the Chamber Measures .004" tighter then a Factory Barrel.

I have never measured a factory fired case as My Lee Dies sizes all the way Past the Bulge to fully remove it.

'Nitro

SDDL-UP · November 30, 2007, 10:27 AM

Thanks Crazy4nitro,

It sure looks like Glock uses chamber dimensions on the large end of the scale. I have NOTHING to back this up other than your dimensions and my own observations, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was well documented somewhere. I'm sure they do this to enhance reliability, but it's not the best for reloaders and hot reloads. Still have a Glock and love it, just making an observation.

totalloser · November 30, 2007, 08:58 PM

I roll my own, and have never found a bulged case. Have measured looking for it, & gave up. I only load recommended loads, and my barrel(s) look like the glock in the picture (got out the compass on the computer screen).
SIZING WONT FIX IT. The bulge if it happens is beyond the reach of the resizing die. My Lee dies stop at .250" from the base. My RCBS dies are about the same. If you had a bulge, a couple steel plates could roll it out (good for military brass rims too) but I'd toss it and load a little lighter. Just mean to your gun to load that hot. Get a 10 mm if you gotta have that much poop.

November 21, 2007, 10:36 AM	#1
Smiter_Co Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2007 Posts: 7	Reloading for .40 S&W I was reading my 2nd edition Lee reloading book last night and I noticed a footnote for the .40 S&W that you should not reload that round for the, "Glock and similar guns because the bullet is not fully supported because of interference by the feeding ramp." I have several other reloading books and none of them mention anything like that. It's also the only round in the book that mentions anything like that in regards to Glock or any gun except for the .45-70 Govt. loads needing to be sure the gun is in good shape. I shoot a .40 S&W 23 C and I'm hoping that this is just one of Lee's quirks.

November 21, 2007, 01:03 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	I think they are referring to the fact that some guns have the bottom edge of the chamber cut slightly forward and chamfered to match the loading ramp. That slight forward relief along the bottom edge of the chamber exposes a short portion of the case brass to the outside world when a cartridge is chambered. A barrel of this type is said to have an "unsupported chamber", even though they actually mean a small portion of the cartridge case is unsupported. The .45 ACP 1911 in standard form is an example of an unsupported chamber. Custom gunsmiths and some manufacturers and the aftermarket offer barrels with an integral feed ramp (the ramp is part of the barrel rather than the frame) which allows them to move the top edge of the ramp back enough to fully support the case. That barrel is said to have a "fully supported" chamber, even though, again, it is support for the case by the chamber and not of the chamber they are talking about. One result of having an "unsupported" chamber is that full pressure loads tend to cause a bulge in the side of the case in the unsupported area. You can resize it and in the .45 ACP we do that if it isn't too extreme, as some +P loads will cause. The .40 S&W, however, is a higher pressure load than the .45 ACP, and I expect there is fear that the bulge will be so great that resized brass will be too weak to be relied upon not to burst if you reload it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 21, 2007, 02:24 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Integral ramp will be a high end gun. I think STI International offers them. Check their web site or call them. I would call Kimber and ask if they do any? I've forgotten. .45 ACP is enough lower pressure than .40 S&W that unless you are running hot ISPC high power factor loads or a steady diet of +P loads and reloads, you don't really need to go to the integral ramp barrel. The bulges happen on one side and are apparent to the naked eye. If in doubt, roll a case along a flat surface and watch for change in the light cracks that show. My guess is that light target loads will be safe even in cases that were bulged a bit by their initial firing. I just don't want to guarantee it. Load some and fire them one-at-a-time wearing glasses and shooting gloves. If they all come out looking fine, you are good to go. I've noticed badly bulged 40 S&W cases at the range, before. These even had a crease where the bulge pressed into the relieved edge of the chamber. I would definitely toss those out. Watch out for guns with polygon barrels rather than conventional rifling. These apparently don't handle lead bullets well and tend to clog with lead, raising pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 21, 2007, 06:44 PM	#5
Crazy4nitro Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Location: Lou-a-vul KY Posts: 142	smiter, I installed a Lone Wolf Barrel with a fully supported Chamber. I reload for my Glock. You can see the case buldge on one side near the rim. it will be slight but noticeable compared to a case fired from a gun with a supported chamber. I have reloaded Many Many Rounds in my Stock Barrel using FMJ Bullets. I only load downloaded rounds for IDPA style shooting. I'm posting a pic of my Stock Barrel next to my Lone Wolf Barrel. I colored the Case red to ease in viewing the unsupported area. Take Note in the Steeper Ramp angle on the Lone Wolf Barrel on the right. This has NOT caused any feeding issues and I Love the Barrel as I can Now shoot Lead Bullets. 'Nitro __________________ Long Live the .41Mag.........IMO It's the .270 of Magnum Revolvers.

November 23, 2007, 11:06 AM	#8
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	how many is "millions"? Having made a few "40 S&W for Glocks", I can offer a few suggestions. Size all cases (I prefer IMI and R-P, but use them all). CCI500. Rainier 180g TCJ-FP. OAL 1.130+/-.005" 5.8--6.1g Alliant Power Pistol; I use 6.0/6.1g. LEE Carbide Factory Crimp die; seat bullet then crimp (using this die) separately. Av = 890--930fps, based on specific gun (this load works in any-and-all so-chambered gun ever attempted, numbering well into the hundreds, including my latest 40 S&W 1911). Case neck tension is the critical factor, as a bullet being deep-seated during the function cycle WILL raise pressure dramatically, often catastrophically (the dreaded "Glock KB" syndrome, yet NOT isolated to Glock). Stock barrels are fine fine fine. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 21, 2007, 01:24 PM	#3
Smiter_Co Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks for the response. That answer leaves me with a few more questions: 1) Is there any way to visually inspect for or use calipers to determine if the bulge is present? 2) If the bulge isn't there, would it be safe to reload with a reduced charge for target practice? 3) Which manufacturers go with the integral feed ramp? I'm considering the purchase of a .45 ACP in the next year and passing the Glock on to my wife. I was looking at the Springfield Armory .45 because they've come up with a way to have a .45 and a high capacity mag. This limitation on reloading, however, would not keep me from ordering fresh brass and loading my own.

November 21, 2007, 07:47 PM	#6
Arub Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2001 Location: UCLA (upper corner of lower Alabama) Posts: 533	I've been loading .40S&W, both 180 and 165 grain bullets, for a pair of Glock 23's for several years. I have recyled the casings many times without a hitch. Although it is true that the 40S&W is a "high pressure" round and that the Glock's have "unsupported chambers", I have not run across anyone who has had any problems with their home loads. The few "kabooms" I have read and heard about are most likely heavy charges or bullet set back (I have seen some factory loads with the bullets set back too far. This condition will cause extreme pressures when fired). I believe that Lee is engaging in "litigation proofing".

November 21, 2007, 10:59 PM	#7
Smiter_Co Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks for the responses. I think I'm going to start pricing replacement barrels and monitor my brass in the mean time. Thanks for the lead and pic of the Lone Wolf, Nitro. I google'd and found Bar Sto, too. I only saw one review for that manufacturer and the guy needed some machine work to make it feed reliably...for that kind of money, I kind of want to drop it in and go! No sense in getting rid of the stock barrel either...always good to have replacement parts.

November 23, 2007, 11:11 AM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	safety note "When in doubt throw it out" I inspect throughout the loading sequence; I throw away ANYTHING that even offers the slightest hint of a suspect nature. I can find more brass, ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 25, 2007, 03:50 PM	#10
SDDL-UP Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 205	Crazy4nitro, Nice picture! I have nothing to back this up, but doesn't glock use a chamber that is in the "large" end of the scale in addition to being less supported in the feed ramp area? Your picture sure looks like the factory Glock barrel is looser than the Lone Wolf one. Have you ever taken measuerments of cases fired out of both barrels? Thanks! __________________ Arm yourself, arm a friend!

November 25, 2007, 05:08 PM	#11
oldscot3 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: texas Posts: 997	My 40 S&W Browning Hi Power has an integral feed ramp, as does my Para 45 ACP and my AE Witness in 10mm Auto. All quite strong and able to handle the same sort of pressure generated by the 9mm cartridge. The Para Ords are often used to build 45 Super pistols. They can handle +P loads, but keep in mind the standard pressure loads which launch 230gr. bullets at 830fps have a long history of proven effectiveness.

November 25, 2007, 09:55 PM	#12
Bullet94 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Kansas Posts: 723	I read that Glock has changed their barrels in 40 S&W. The newer barrels have more case support than the old barrels. __________________ PRO-SECOND AMENDMENT - Live Free or Die

November 25, 2007, 11:00 PM	#13
K Bob Member Join Date: October 16, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 18	You may be right about the new Glocks Bullet94. I checked my chamber like in the picture above and my stock barrel looked to have more support than my Lone Wolf barrel.

November 26, 2007, 12:05 AM	#14
Smiter_Co Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks for the load data WESHOOT and the stock barrel endorsement. After looking at the Lone Wolf, I noticed that they are not ported the same way my 23C barrel is...Bar Sto, too.

November 26, 2007, 01:05 AM	#15
panino Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 19	Here is an article with some images of a bulged case from a early Glock 21. If you stay away from the max loads you should be fine.

November 26, 2007, 01:06 AM	#16
Crazy4nitro Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Location: Lou-a-vul KY Posts: 142	SDDL-UP, I used calipers on my Lone wolf Barrel and the Chamber Measures .004" tighter then a Factory Barrel. I have never measured a factory fired case as My Lee Dies sizes all the way Past the Bulge to fully remove it. 'Nitro __________________ Long Live the .41Mag.........IMO It's the .270 of Magnum Revolvers.

November 30, 2007, 10:27 AM	#17
SDDL-UP Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 205	Thanks Crazy4nitro, It sure looks like Glock uses chamber dimensions on the large end of the scale. I have NOTHING to back this up other than your dimensions and my own observations, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was well documented somewhere. I'm sure they do this to enhance reliability, but it's not the best for reloaders and hot reloads. Still have a Glock and love it, just making an observation. __________________ Arm yourself, arm a friend!

November 30, 2007, 08:58 PM	#18
totalloser Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Location: Fort Bragg, CA Posts: 679	I roll my own, and have never found a bulged case. Have measured looking for it, & gave up. I only load recommended loads, and my barrel(s) look like the glock in the picture (got out the compass on the computer screen). SIZING WONT FIX IT. The bulge if it happens is beyond the reach of the resizing die. My Lee dies stop at .250" from the base. My RCBS dies are about the same. If you had a bulge, a couple steel plates could roll it out (good for military brass rims too) but I'd toss it and load a little lighter. Just mean to your gun to load that hot. Get a 10 mm if you gotta have that much poop.

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