Road Rage

Doc Holliday 1950 · January 23, 2018, 09:46 PM

You're with your wife & making a left hand turn on a street that has 2 left hand lanes to do so.
You realize your lane is going to merge into one lane . You have cars on your left & cars behind you. You can't stop so you put on your signal that you're coming in but the driver on your left decides not to be a nice driver and he goes faster than you so you can't get into the correct lane. Split second timing, you hit your gas & get into the only lane open to you. The guy who was trolling you slows up, goes around you on the emergency side of the road, pulls up in front of you & he jams his brakes on making you come to a full stop. You realize that you & your wife are on very very dangerous grounds & your wife is terrified.

You've carried 24/7 & are in Florida which has a "Stand Your Ground Law. For many years you've heard & saw many many cases of Road Rage. You realize that this person did what he did on purpose & you have just a few options. So, here's the Question. What do you do ??

ShaulWolf · January 23, 2018, 09:58 PM

Is there a way to go around this person's (I'm guessing) stopped vehicle? Has this person exited the vehicle?

James K · January 23, 2018, 10:00 PM

Nothing, let him have the lane. Unless he gets out of his car with a gun or opens fire on you, you let him go on. If necessary, you apologize profusely. Your pride is not worth your or your wife's life, or doing time in prison. You keep your weapon out of sight unless YOU or your wife is subject to a direct threat.

Sure it rankles, but believe me, the alternatives are worse. Do you know what it means to be arrested, spend time in jail, have to put up every nickel you have to make bail (if you even can), have your guns seized and held until sometime or maybe forever, try to find a defense attorney who will want maybe 20-40 thousand for a defense, and that assumes the you and the other driver are the same race. If not, multiply all your problems by twenty.

Jim

Doc Holliday 1950 · January 23, 2018, 10:02 PM

Not really. let's say that we were pretty pinned in this troll would not allow you to go your way.

James K · January 23, 2018, 10:21 PM

I don't want to play scenarios, that is a silly game with no winner. You live in the real world and will have to take the consequences of your actions in that world, not in some fantasy land.

If you cannot move, just sit there. Not easy, but at that point he controls the situation. As long as he doesn't make a direct threat just wait him out. Now if he gets out and approaches your car, you prepare to defend yourself (gun in hand but not visible). If he shows a gun or other deadly weapon, you wait until you have no alternative, then do what you have to do. Don't argue, don't mouth off; when you have NO alternative, use any means to defend yourself and your wife. At that point you are the innocent person; by making that aggressive move he has taken on the role of the bad guy. (If you have a cell phone or a mobile radio, you should have called the police when he first blocked you in.)

If he is as impatient as you describe, he won't stick around long. I would bet he will "gas and go" in about 2-3 minutes.

Jim

ShaulWolf · January 23, 2018, 10:24 PM

I'd have to agree with James. No way out without exiting the vehicle, which isn't a good option. If they haven't gotten out and approached, then leave them be until they pull away. If they're just yelling, then let them yell. If they have a weapon in hand, then there's a different set of circumstances.

James K · January 23, 2018, 10:42 PM

If the other car is blocking the road, and you have a cell phone or mobile radio, you should have already called the police to report the road block. I wouldn't mention any previous events, just that the road is blocked. You are now on record as the innocent citizen. When the flashing lights show up, i suspect the other guy will remember an appointment elsewhere.

Jim

Doc Holliday 1950 · January 23, 2018, 11:49 PM

Yes, that was originally my exact thought
but life sometimes is not black & white.
For a mili second my choices went back
& forth. Thankfully everyone walked m
away with no missing parts.

Scoits · January 24, 2018, 06:55 AM

Am with James all the way!!!!!!

zincwarrior · January 24, 2018, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James K

Nothing, let him have the lane. Unless he gets out of his car with a gun or opens fire on you, you let him go on. If necessary, you apologize profusely. Your pride is not worth your or your wife's life, or doing time in prison. You keep your weapon out of sight unless YOU or your wife is subject to a direct threat.

Sure it rankles, but believe me, the alternatives are worse. Do you know what it means to be arrested, spend time in jail, have to put up every nickel you have to make bail (if you even can), have your guns seized and held until sometime or maybe forever, try to find a defense attorney who will want maybe 20-40 thousand for a defense, and that assumes the you and the other driver are the same race. If not, multiply all your problems by twenty.

Jim

Excellent answer. Also just restate, do not get out of your car. Do not roll down your window.

GarandTd · January 24, 2018, 08:10 AM

Lets not forget you have a 2000-5000lb loaded weapon in your hands, cocked, and your finger on the trigger, so to speak. An automobile accident is easier to deal with than a shooting, I imagine. You have options. But as has been said, wait'n'see is probably the best choice...as uncomfortable as it may be.

Nanuk · January 24, 2018, 08:15 AM

I am with James on this. I hate fantasy what if's.

You are carrying a gun, you can't afford to be an aggressor.

Nanuk · January 24, 2018, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Lets not forget you have a 2000-5000lb loaded weapon in your hands, cocked, and your finger on the trigger, so to speak. An automobile accident is easier to deal with than a shooting, I imagine.

The second you use you car as a weapon, it is legally a weapon. Unless of course it is a black military style vehicle.

MandolinMan · January 24, 2018, 08:34 AM

Quote:

You realize that you & your wife are on very very dangerous grounds & your wife is terrified.

Assuming this is true, my first move would be to call the police. As others said, stay in the vehicle and don't show a weapon.

GarandTd · January 24, 2018, 09:02 AM

Quote:

The second you use your car as a weapon, it is legally a weapon.

You're right. Poor choice of words on my part. It is a tool at one's disposal. It doesn't necessarily have to be used as a weapon, to be used defensively.

briandg · January 24, 2018, 09:13 AM

Nothing. There is no information at that point that would justify anything other than being ready.

Would I put hand on pistol, leave it hidden, wait for another move, get out of the situation if possible? Yep. call the cops and wait for further developments. Road rage, or whatever you want to call it when some aggressive beast makes dangerous moves, usually involves escalation. don't escalate.

Onward Allusion · January 24, 2018, 10:23 AM

So the guy in front jammed on the brakes... Is he now proceeding? Did he get out of his car? If so, what is he doing? Are his hands empty?

For now - do nothing. Any action from you will likely escalate the situation.

Quote:

Not really. let's say that we were pretty pinned in this troll would not allow you to go your way.

Call the cops - make sure the other driver sees that you are on your phone.

SonOfScubaDiver · January 24, 2018, 11:37 AM

It seems to me that if the emergency lane was there for him to zoom around you, then it would also be there to provide you with an avenue of escape, should he get out of his car to escalate the situation. Now, if he gets out of the car flashing a gun, and you are in imminent danger, then do what you must to defend yourself and your wife. But in the time it would take for him to get back into his car to come after you, you could zip over into the eee lane and put the pedal to the metal and get some distance between you and him while you call da popo.

silverbullet6oh · January 24, 2018, 11:38 AM

As MandolinMan and Onward Allusion have stated, your best weapon is your phone to call for police. I would have my wife make the call so that I could stay focused on the situation at hand. And stay in my car at all cost. Try to find a way out of the area with your vehicle.

- P

FireForged · January 24, 2018, 12:24 PM

Life is full of adversity and a person should probably accept that from time to time they are going to have to manage a few bumps in the road. Let me say first that given what has been said in the narrative.. this is NOT a gun situation in my mind, not yet anyway. I will also say that I would be hard pressed to accept the need of a gun when dealing with ONE seemingly UNARMED individual, no matter how hostile he/she may be. I will not use a gun to avoid something less than clear imminent life threatening circumstances. What "can or might" happen is very different than what reasonable evidence suggest is "probably" going to happen (right now).

All that said, I would try to avoid contact with the person. I would get a call to the authorities and request help. I would back up or drive away to the degree that is reasonable acceptable under the circumstances to escape danger. If I am able to get mobile, I will coordinate efforts with the authorities to rendezvous with them. The bottom line is that in order for the bad guy to get to me, he has to exit his car. When he does that, I will simply drive away. I will leap frog my way to the authorities in as safe a manner as I can manage. Stop, start, stop start... until I reach them.

[IF] the person with ill intent produces a weapon, I will respond to that in kind. If multiple violent badguys intent on harming me try to remove me from my vehicle..I will do what I must to repel that because in my mind it suggests life threatening danger. One unarmed person is generally something less than that and not likely something I would considering using a gun to manage. To me( in my mind) there are some exceptions but I am simply debating generally.

spacemanspiff · January 24, 2018, 12:29 PM

Just so I understand your situation. The other driver pulled around you on your right (not a lane anymore) and stopped in front of you. How much traffic was behind you at this point?

And were the vehicles behind him, prior to your goosing the gas to get in front also not showing signs they would have let you into the lane? You say there was traffic behind you as well in this lane that was merging into the left hand lane. Were they also unable to merge?

I ask these questions because there seems to be a detail missing here in the story. Did you perhaps lay on your horn when the other driver wouldnt let you merge? Flip him off?

zincwarrior · January 24, 2018, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacemanspiff

Just so I understand your situation. The other driver pulled around you on your right (not a lane anymore) and stopped in front of you. How much traffic was behind you at this point?

And were the vehicles behind him, prior to your goosing the gas to get in front also not showing signs they would have let you into the lane? You say there was traffic behind you as well in this lane that was merging into the left hand lane. Were they also unable to merge?

I ask these questions because there seems to be a detail missing here in the story. Did you perhaps lay on your horn when the other driver wouldnt let you merge? Flip him off?

The situation may be hypothetical but I have had similar happen to me several times in heavy Houston traffic. No fingers etc. given, just the stress of rush hour or traffic blocked up with an accident. Usually its nothing more than they zip around in front of you (because its a race apparently). I've not had it escalate.

TailGator · January 24, 2018, 04:02 PM

Let's go back a step:

Quote:

You can't stop so you put on your signal that you're coming in but the driver on your left decides not to be a nice driver and he goes faster than you so you can't get into the correct lane. Split second timing, you hit your gas & get into the only lane open to you.

If I'm reading it right, he cut you off from changing lanes, and you drove somewhat aggressively to get ahead of him anyway. My solution doesn't involve guns or phones. Get in behind him instead of in front. If he punched the gas as hard as you say, it opens space behind him.

I had a traffic situation a few months ago. Two roads converged and markings were clear that all the lanes were continuous, with no merging needed or expected. It was late at night in a small town, so there was one car on each road. I looked in the mirror and the other car had changed lanes and was right on my bumper. As we approached a light, he zoomed back beside me, where he should have been all along, and screamed with a red face, "Hey, @##$%, don't you know what a yield sign means?" Now I could have yelled back and asked if he knew what the lines on the road were for, and I would have been correct. Instead I said, "Sorry, my mistake." I lied, but he felt better. Did I avoid a shooting? Quite unlikely, but not impossible. No need to take a chance.

**OldMarksman** · January 24, 2018, 04:46 PM

I see nothing related to firearms in this discussion.

January 23, 2018, 09:46 PM	#1
Doc Holliday 1950 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2014 Location: Bout as south as it gets Posts: 1,238	Road Rage You're with your wife & making a left hand turn on a street that has 2 left hand lanes to do so. You realize your lane is going to merge into one lane . You have cars on your left & cars behind you. You can't stop so you put on your signal that you're coming in but the driver on your left decides not to be a nice driver and he goes faster than you so you can't get into the correct lane. Split second timing, you hit your gas & get into the only lane open to you. The guy who was trolling you slows up, goes around you on the emergency side of the road, pulls up in front of you & he jams his brakes on making you come to a full stop. You realize that you & your wife are on very very dangerous grounds & your wife is terrified. You've carried 24/7 & are in Florida which has a "Stand Your Ground Law. For many years you've heard & saw many many cases of Road Rage. You realize that this person did what he did on purpose & you have just a few options. So, here's the Question. What do you do ?? __________________ Shoot well and be Accurate, Doc

January 23, 2018, 10:02 PM	#4
Doc Holliday 1950 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2014 Location: Bout as south as it gets Posts: 1,238	Not really. let's say that we were pretty pinned in this troll would not allow you to go your way. __________________ Shoot well and be Accurate, Doc

January 23, 2018, 11:49 PM	#8
Doc Holliday 1950 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2014 Location: Bout as south as it gets Posts: 1,238	Yes, that was originally my exact thought but life sometimes is not black & white. For a mili second my choices went back & forth. Thankfully everyone walked m away with no missing parts. __________________ Shoot well and be Accurate, Doc

January 24, 2018, 08:10 AM	#11
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	Lets not forget you have a 2000-5000lb loaded weapon in your hands, cocked, and your finger on the trigger, so to speak. An automobile accident is easier to deal with than a shooting, I imagine. You have options. But as has been said, wait'n'see is probably the best choice...as uncomfortable as it may be. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

January 24, 2018, 08:15 AM	#12
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I am with James on this. I hate fantasy what if's. You are carrying a gun, you can't afford to be an aggressor. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

January 23, 2018, 09:58 PM	#2
ShaulWolf Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: New Castle, PA Posts: 189	Is there a way to go around this person's (I'm guessing) stopped vehicle? Has this person exited the vehicle?

January 23, 2018, 10:00 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Nothing, let him have the lane. Unless he gets out of his car with a gun or opens fire on you, you let him go on. If necessary, you apologize profusely. Your pride is not worth your or your wife's life, or doing time in prison. You keep your weapon out of sight unless YOU or your wife is subject to a direct threat. Sure it rankles, but believe me, the alternatives are worse. Do you know what it means to be arrested, spend time in jail, have to put up every nickel you have to make bail (if you even can), have your guns seized and held until sometime or maybe forever, try to find a defense attorney who will want maybe 20-40 thousand for a defense, and that assumes the you and the other driver are the same race. If not, multiply all your problems by twenty. Jim

January 23, 2018, 10:21 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't want to play scenarios, that is a silly game with no winner. You live in the real world and will have to take the consequences of your actions in that world, not in some fantasy land. If you cannot move, just sit there. Not easy, but at that point he controls the situation. As long as he doesn't make a direct threat just wait him out. Now if he gets out and approaches your car, you prepare to defend yourself (gun in hand but not visible). If he shows a gun or other deadly weapon, you wait until you have no alternative, then do what you have to do. Don't argue, don't mouth off; when you have NO alternative, use any means to defend yourself and your wife. At that point you are the innocent person; by making that aggressive move he has taken on the role of the bad guy. (If you have a cell phone or a mobile radio, you should have called the police when he first blocked you in.) If he is as impatient as you describe, he won't stick around long. I would bet he will "gas and go" in about 2-3 minutes. Jim

January 23, 2018, 10:24 PM	#6
ShaulWolf Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: New Castle, PA Posts: 189	I'd have to agree with James. No way out without exiting the vehicle, which isn't a good option. If they haven't gotten out and approached, then leave them be until they pull away. If they're just yelling, then let them yell. If they have a weapon in hand, then there's a different set of circumstances.

January 23, 2018, 10:42 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If the other car is blocking the road, and you have a cell phone or mobile radio, you should have already called the police to report the road block. I wouldn't mention any previous events, just that the road is blocked. You are now on record as the innocent citizen. When the flashing lights show up, i suspect the other guy will remember an appointment elsewhere. Jim

January 24, 2018, 06:55 AM	#9
Scoits Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2017 Posts: 178	Am with James all the way!!!!!!

January 24, 2018, 09:13 AM	#16
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Nothing. There is no information at that point that would justify anything other than being ready. Would I put hand on pistol, leave it hidden, wait for another move, get out of the situation if possible? Yep. call the cops and wait for further developments. Road rage, or whatever you want to call it when some aggressive beast makes dangerous moves, usually involves escalation. don't escalate. __________________ None.

January 24, 2018, 11:37 AM	#18
SonOfScubaDiver Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2017 Posts: 391	It seems to me that if the emergency lane was there for him to zoom around you, then it would also be there to provide you with an avenue of escape, should he get out of his car to escalate the situation. Now, if he gets out of the car flashing a gun, and you are in imminent danger, then do what you must to defend yourself and your wife. But in the time it would take for him to get back into his car to come after you, you could zip over into the eee lane and put the pedal to the metal and get some distance between you and him while you call da popo.

January 24, 2018, 11:38 AM	#19
silverbullet6oh Registration in progress Join Date: October 2, 2015 Posts: 137	As MandolinMan and Onward Allusion have stated, your best weapon is your phone to call for police. I would have my wife make the call so that I could stay focused on the situation at hand. And stay in my car at all cost. Try to find a way out of the area with your vehicle. - P

January 24, 2018, 12:24 PM	#20
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	Life is full of adversity and a person should probably accept that from time to time they are going to have to manage a few bumps in the road. Let me say first that given what has been said in the narrative.. this is NOT a gun situation in my mind, not yet anyway. I will also say that I would be hard pressed to accept the need of a gun when dealing with ONE seemingly UNARMED individual, no matter how hostile he/she may be. I will not use a gun to avoid something less than clear imminent life threatening circumstances. What "can or might" happen is very different than what reasonable evidence suggest is "probably" going to happen (right now). All that said, I would try to avoid contact with the person. I would get a call to the authorities and request help. I would back up or drive away to the degree that is reasonable acceptable under the circumstances to escape danger. If I am able to get mobile, I will coordinate efforts with the authorities to rendezvous with them. The bottom line is that in order for the bad guy to get to me, he has to exit his car. When he does that, I will simply drive away. I will leap frog my way to the authorities in as safe a manner as I can manage. Stop, start, stop start... until I reach them. [IF] the person with ill intent produces a weapon, I will respond to that in kind. If multiple violent badguys intent on harming me try to remove me from my vehicle..I will do what I must to repel that because in my mind it suggests life threatening danger. One unarmed person is generally something less than that and not likely something I would considering using a gun to manage. To me( in my mind) there are some exceptions but I am simply debating generally. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

January 24, 2018, 12:29 PM	#21
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	Just so I understand your situation. The other driver pulled around you on your right (not a lane anymore) and stopped in front of you. How much traffic was behind you at this point? And were the vehicles behind him, prior to your goosing the gas to get in front also not showing signs they would have let you into the lane? You say there was traffic behind you as well in this lane that was merging into the left hand lane. Were they also unable to merge? I ask these questions because there seems to be a detail missing here in the story. Did you perhaps lay on your horn when the other driver wouldnt let you merge? Flip him off? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

January 24, 2018, 04:46 PM	#24
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	I see nothing related to firearms in this discussion.