300 Sherman

Nathan · January 11, 2020, 02:30 PM

Anybody here work with 300 Sherman? How was it? What OAL’s are you loading?

T. O'Heir · January 12, 2020, 02:48 PM

First I've heard of yet another answer to an unasked question. I do see that Sherman does not put any load data on their site. They do show several variations of cartridge.
The cartridges and the lack of load data were discussed, very briefly, on these pages way back in 2013. It won't help though.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=524318
There is a bit of completely unknown source data(likely not properly tested too) here via Sherman's site here.
https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...s-here.213658/

Nathan · January 12, 2020, 04:23 PM

Let me help you with the question... people love 30-06. Then people said what if I could have more power for elk, moose, bear and maybe longer range.

Then the gun companies made 300 Win Mag. Great! Except, it had way more recoil and lost a round in the mag. Then the belt issues...

So, how do I get 100-150FPS more out of a 30-06? Without the negatives?

old roper · January 12, 2020, 10:40 PM

https://shermanwildcatcartridges.com/300-sherman

I think Sherman is pretty close to the 30 Gibbs.

They shorten neck blew case out like AI, maybe gained 5/6gr more case capacity.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/30-Gibbs/907

I shoot 35 WhelenAI and next one is going to be Brown Whelen which has shorter neck.

HiBC · January 12, 2020, 11:30 PM

Nathan: Rather than asking for 100 to 150 fps more from the 30-06,what is a bullet weight/velocity you would be happy with?

Nathan · January 13, 2020, 03:49 PM

200 gr bullet at 2800fps, would be fine performance from a 0.473” bolt face to keep mag capacity and reasonable priced good brass.

HiBC · January 13, 2020, 04:15 PM

OK My trusty Nosler Load book shos RE-22 will toss a 200 gr partition at 2768 fps with a 94 % case fill with a 30-06 Ackley.

The 32 fps its short is within "margin of error"Maybe newer gen powders will get you there.

And,every rifle s different.Of course,many an AI shooter wwill achieve velocities not in the book,prudent or not.

Not suggesting ignoring max,but appropriately,there is some margin of error.

For example,it CAN be that the guy who keeps records, who buys 8 lb jugs of powder,always using the same lot, bys 500 virgn brass rather than nrange pickup,requires less margin than the guy who buys 1 lb at a time,with a different lot each time.

I've used my chrono to watch velocity gains to coincide with charge increases to find my "max" when I gained less velocity with a charge ncrease.

BTW,these usually agree very closely with published data

And,if 4 loadings gets me looser primer pockets,its too hot.

I'm not avocating being reckless,but a different load book may show variance enough for 32 fps.

Grand scheme of things32 fps won't make or break anything.Its just a number. What if a foot was only 11 inches,,or a second was 1.01 second?

We pick a number off a page,but what does it mean?Does it gain you 25 yds range?

Nathan · January 13, 2020, 09:15 PM

In a 22” barrel?

HiBC · January 13, 2020, 11:46 PM

Picky,Picky!! No.24 in. However!!

This is Nosler's 5th edition,for traceability..A Mr Pat Mundy wrote the intro to the cartridge on page 313. I quote :

"Switch to 180 gr bullets and slow powder and velocity can incease to well over 2900 fps"
The data shows 2985 with RE 22 and a 180

With your criteria of a .473 case heas...it comes real close to what you ask for.

Nathan · January 14, 2020, 11:20 AM

You’re not wrong. What is wrong with 300 Sherman, I would ask....

Looks like he is ordering Hornady dies. Reamer rental is reasonable.

Case forming is:
Get some 270 cases.
Expand to 30 caliber....should be one step with new brass.....maybe 2, if I get neck splits.
Load up mild load with bullet in the lands of cheapest 30 cal bullet. Maybe 110’s or more likely the 150’s.
Then run through the Annealeez
Reload as usual

30-06 AI has lower performance, but similar cost dies.

Some will say 300WM, but who needs the belt and the blast! That diameter will cost a round in the mag.

HiBC · January 14, 2020, 12:48 PM

I know nothing about the 30 Sherman. As far as I know,Sherman was Peabody's sidekick on the Bullwinkle show.
Follow your bliss. Enjoy!

I do suggest that before you invest heavily,come up with any die/cartridge brass combination that will allow you to experiment with necking brass up.

We are not concerned about creating a known cartridge. The exercise is puely about shoving an expander plug through a case neck to dee how well a decapping spindle and expander plug "necks up". See if you like the results.

old roper · January 14, 2020, 01:19 PM

HIBC, You need to finish Quote.

This is Nosler's 5th edition,for traceability..A Mr Pat Mundy wrote the intro to the cartridge on page 313. I quote :

I rely on 150gr grain BT for deer, but velocity is only about 100fps faster than standard 30-06. Don't get me wrong, the load hits very hard, even at long range. "Switch to 180 gr bullets and slow powder and velocity can incease to well over 2900 fps --Plenty of thump for elk. This velocity results in energy comparable to several of the 300 magnums with less recoil."

HiBC · January 14, 2020, 01:46 PM

Old Roper: Seems like you covered it for me. Thanks.

old roper · January 15, 2020, 09:54 AM

Problem with 30-06 it has low spec pressure than 270/308. I just guess but don't think Nosler upped the pressure for 30-06AI. They upped load 1.5 gr more than 30-06 for 200gr bullet using same powder/bullet/barrel(Lilja)/twist/length.

Sherman upped pressure maybe to 65K.

HiBC · January 15, 2020, 10:57 AM

Do you know if the 30-06 lower pressure limit is about brass strength or does it consider the Garand,the Win 95,and the fact some folks shoot questionable mil-surps...such as low number Springfields and Eddystones?

I would guess there is no difference in brass strength.

I have noticed that folks compare cartridges based on published velocities at SAAMI pressures.

The 7mm Rem mag is another cartridge that appears handicapped by a lower SAAMI rating

Don Fischer · January 15, 2020, 12:17 PM

I think I understand the idea of wildcatt's, shoot I have one! But I don't understand the 300mag class at all. If a 30-06 won't do it, a 300 mag probably will be short stepping also. It has always seemed to me the logical step up from 30-06 would be the 338 mag. Suddenly your into something that has factory weight bullet's the 30 cal doesn't get to. I would not hesitate to use a 30-06 with a 200gr load on anything in N. America. But on dangerous game in N. America I wouldn't think it would match a 338 mag with a 250 gr bullet. Quite possibly even a 338-06 with a 250 gr bullet.

HiBC · January 15, 2020, 12:42 PM

Well,Don,why mess around? If a little is good,a lot is better!

I neck the 458 down to create 375 Taylor,or 375-338

old roper · January 15, 2020, 06:25 PM

I think it up to Nathan on what he wants. Myself, I get hold of Sherman he could answer all the question.

Nathan · January 16, 2020, 04:48 AM

Thanks or. I have spoke to Mr Sherman. He has been quite helpful. I’m just reaching out to the community for some other experience...maybe call it a second opinion!

Nathan · January 25, 2020, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Problem with 30-06 it has low spec pressure than 270/308. I just guess but don't think Nosler upped the pressure for 30-06AI. They upped load 1.5 gr more than 30-06 for 200gr bullet using same powder/bullet/barrel(Lilja)/twist/length.

Sherman upped pressure maybe to 65K.

This is the issue... we don’t know the AI or Sherman pressure. What I read/hear is that the Sherman’s straight wall can handle more pressure. Also, it moves the shoulder forward and makes it steeper....this gives quite a bit more capacity.

If his Hornady bushing dies come in at a reasonable price, then we are getting more than the AI with little penalty!

Starline, RWS and Norma all make good brass.

January 11, 2020, 02:30 PM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	300 Sherman Anybody here work with 300 Sherman? How was it? What OAL’s are you loading?

January 12, 2020, 02:48 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	First I've heard of yet another answer to an unasked question. I do see that Sherman does not put any load data on their site. They do show several variations of cartridge. The cartridges and the lack of load data were discussed, very briefly, on these pages way back in 2013. It won't help though. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=524318 There is a bit of completely unknown source data(likely not properly tested too) here via Sherman's site here. https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...s-here.213658/ __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 12, 2020, 10:40 PM	#4
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	https://shermanwildcatcartridges.com/300-sherman I think Sherman is pretty close to the 30 Gibbs. They shorten neck blew case out like AI, maybe gained 5/6gr more case capacity. https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/30-Gibbs/907 I shoot 35 WhelenAI and next one is going to be Brown Whelen which has shorter neck. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

January 13, 2020, 04:15 PM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	OK My trusty Nosler Load book shos RE-22 will toss a 200 gr partition at 2768 fps with a 94 % case fill with a 30-06 Ackley. The 32 fps its short is within "margin of error"Maybe newer gen powders will get you there. And,every rifle s different.Of course,many an AI shooter wwill achieve velocities not in the book,prudent or not. Not suggesting ignoring max,but appropriately,there is some margin of error. For example,it CAN be that the guy who keeps records, who buys 8 lb jugs of powder,always using the same lot, bys 500 virgn brass rather than nrange pickup,requires less margin than the guy who buys 1 lb at a time,with a different lot each time. I've used my chrono to watch velocity gains to coincide with charge increases to find my "max" when I gained less velocity with a charge ncrease. BTW,these usually agree very closely with published data And,if 4 loadings gets me looser primer pockets,its too hot. I'm not avocating being reckless,but a different load book may show variance enough for 32 fps. Grand scheme of things32 fps won't make or break anything.Its just a number. What if a foot was only 11 inches,,or a second was 1.01 second? We pick a number off a page,but what does it mean?Does it gain you 25 yds range? Last edited by HiBC; January 13, 2020 at 04:43 PM.

January 13, 2020, 11:46 PM	#9
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Picky,Picky!! No.24 in. However!! This is Nosler's 5th edition,for traceability..A Mr Pat Mundy wrote the intro to the cartridge on page 313. I quote : "Switch to 180 gr bullets and slow powder and velocity can incease to well over 2900 fps" The data shows 2985 with RE 22 and a 180 With your criteria of a .473 case heas...it comes real close to what you ask for. Last edited by HiBC; January 14, 2020 at 01:47 PM.

January 12, 2020, 04:23 PM	#3
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	Let me help you with the question... people love 30-06. Then people said what if I could have more power for elk, moose, bear and maybe longer range. Then the gun companies made 300 Win Mag. Great! Except, it had way more recoil and lost a round in the mag. Then the belt issues... So, how do I get 100-150FPS more out of a 30-06? Without the negatives?

January 12, 2020, 11:30 PM	#5
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Nathan: Rather than asking for 100 to 150 fps more from the 30-06,what is a bullet weight/velocity you would be happy with?

January 13, 2020, 03:49 PM	#6
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	200 gr bullet at 2800fps, would be fine performance from a 0.473” bolt face to keep mag capacity and reasonable priced good brass.

January 13, 2020, 09:15 PM	#8
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	In a 22” barrel?

January 14, 2020, 11:20 AM	#10
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	You’re not wrong. What is wrong with 300 Sherman, I would ask.... Looks like he is ordering Hornady dies. Reamer rental is reasonable. Case forming is: Get some 270 cases. Expand to 30 caliber....should be one step with new brass.....maybe 2, if I get neck splits. Load up mild load with bullet in the lands of cheapest 30 cal bullet. Maybe 110’s or more likely the 150’s. Then run through the Annealeez Reload as usual 30-06 AI has lower performance, but similar cost dies. Some will say 300WM, but who needs the belt and the blast! That diameter will cost a round in the mag.

January 14, 2020, 12:48 PM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I know nothing about the 30 Sherman. As far as I know,Sherman was Peabody's sidekick on the Bullwinkle show. Follow your bliss. Enjoy! I do suggest that before you invest heavily,come up with any die/cartridge brass combination that will allow you to experiment with necking brass up. We are not concerned about creating a known cartridge. The exercise is puely about shoving an expander plug through a case neck to dee how well a decapping spindle and expander plug "necks up". See if you like the results.

January 14, 2020, 01:19 PM	#12
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	HIBC, You need to finish Quote. This is Nosler's 5th edition,for traceability..A Mr Pat Mundy wrote the intro to the cartridge on page 313. I quote : I rely on 150gr grain BT for deer, but velocity is only about 100fps faster than standard 30-06. Don't get me wrong, the load hits very hard, even at long range. "Switch to 180 gr bullets and slow powder and velocity can incease to well over 2900 fps --Plenty of thump for elk. This velocity results in energy comparable to several of the 300 magnums with less recoil." __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

January 14, 2020, 01:46 PM	#13
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Old Roper: Seems like you covered it for me. Thanks.

January 15, 2020, 09:54 AM	#14
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Problem with 30-06 it has low spec pressure than 270/308. I just guess but don't think Nosler upped the pressure for 30-06AI. They upped load 1.5 gr more than 30-06 for 200gr bullet using same powder/bullet/barrel(Lilja)/twist/length. Sherman upped pressure maybe to 65K. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

January 15, 2020, 10:57 AM	#15
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Do you know if the 30-06 lower pressure limit is about brass strength or does it consider the Garand,the Win 95,and the fact some folks shoot questionable mil-surps...such as low number Springfields and Eddystones? I would guess there is no difference in brass strength. I have noticed that folks compare cartridges based on published velocities at SAAMI pressures. The 7mm Rem mag is another cartridge that appears handicapped by a lower SAAMI rating

January 15, 2020, 12:17 PM	#16
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I think I understand the idea of wildcatt's, shoot I have one! But I don't understand the 300mag class at all. If a 30-06 won't do it, a 300 mag probably will be short stepping also. It has always seemed to me the logical step up from 30-06 would be the 338 mag. Suddenly your into something that has factory weight bullet's the 30 cal doesn't get to. I would not hesitate to use a 30-06 with a 200gr load on anything in N. America. But on dangerous game in N. America I wouldn't think it would match a 338 mag with a 250 gr bullet. Quite possibly even a 338-06 with a 250 gr bullet.

January 15, 2020, 12:42 PM	#17
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Well,Don,why mess around? If a little is good,a lot is better! I neck the 458 down to create 375 Taylor,or 375-338

January 15, 2020, 06:25 PM	#18
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I think it up to Nathan on what he wants. Myself, I get hold of Sherman he could answer all the question. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

January 16, 2020, 04:48 AM	#19
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	Thanks or. I have spoke to Mr Sherman. He has been quite helpful. I’m just reaching out to the community for some other experience...maybe call it a second opinion!