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Old October 21, 2019, 05:06 AM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
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Edged weapons are a whole different can of possum innards. completely concealable. instant and disabling strikes
I can only speak to the cases I’ve reviewed but in the two dozen or so stabbings I looked at, knives were rarely “instant.” They could be lethal; but it wasn’t unusual to have the guy who died beat the snot out of the guy who stabbed him. In a lot of cases, the victim didn’t even realize they’d been stabbed until their blood pressure finally dropped off and they collapsed.
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Old October 21, 2019, 06:28 AM   #27
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I can only speak to the cases I’ve reviewed but in the two dozen or so stabbings I looked at, knives were rarely “instant.” They could be lethal; but it wasn’t unusual to have the guy who died beat the snot out of the guy who stabbed him. In a lot of cases, the victim didn’t even realize they’d been stabbed until their blood pressure finally dropped off and they collapsed.
That's of small consolation to the victim. Killing or disabling the attacker only to die in the ambulance is still an unsuccessful defense.
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Old October 21, 2019, 10:35 AM   #28
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Sure, my point was they make a better offensive weapon than defensive.
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Old October 21, 2019, 12:45 PM   #29
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Sure, my point was they make a better offensive weapon than defensive.
Unfortunately, that is a very good point.
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Old October 21, 2019, 03:21 PM   #30
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Seeing videos/film clips etc. Quite good, but something you have been involved in, is really good.

I worked as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool UK from 1960 to 1964 at The Cavern Club of Beatles fame, on Mathew Street, a short dark Street. A year at the Blue Angel, on Seal Street.

One Friday night 1962? I would have been 27 years of age, quite fit, climbed onto building for a living full-time job, erecting TV Aerials. Bouncer cash in the hand, part-time Thur/Fri/Sat nights. My wife looked after the two children, did not work outside the home.

Friday typical day, left for work at 8 AM, arrived home around 5 pm. Had supper, washed up, no showers then. Might get half an hour nap.

In the Company Van, off to Liverpool, just over half an hour drive, start at 7 pm. Bouncer dress, cheap black suit, white shirt, clip-on bow tie, lightweight boots, crepe soles, composite toe caps? At one spell I carried an ebony ruler as a staff. Hole drilled in it, bootlace (leather) as a loop through that hole.
16" long, inch and a 1/4 round.

First time I was stabbed, small blade, or nail file UG! Next to the right kidney.

Second time also a Friday night, past 10-30 PM, closed for entry. A man about 25? A good suit, expensive leather shoes, collar and tie, a toff? Me on my own, Larry had gone downstairs for two cups of tea (Free) it was a cold night.

Me on the step, 4" tall at the entrance from the Street, 4 feet wide, no door.
The door was 10 feet inside, top of the stairs (I think) He had an expensive gold watch on his RIGHT! Wrist. I never took note of that. Tired that I was.
Normally means a left-handed person! He was twitching about, moving his shoulders? Talking in a well-educated voice. He threw, what I thought was a left-handed punch, aimed at my lower chest. I brough my hands to my centre line, lowered my self a little, bending knees a bit. Grasped his left wrist, with my right hand. Felt a pinprick in my wrist, a glance down showed a dark line in the inside of my wrist. No pain. He is trying to pull it out, for a second go?
Not playing that game, I remember changing my feet, bringing my left foot over and into his face. His head bounced off the wall, he dropped like a bag of coal. The Jeep Patrol, 5 Coppers, the Jock Sgt. took note of his injuries.
Broken jaw, cheekbone, eye socket, 4 teeth on the deck. Don't remember if the Police took him, or an Ambulance.

Presenting the Police with the homemade ice pick, polished wooden handle, he had sewn into an upside-down holster, carried under his right arm, took any blame off me. I went to the Emerg at the local hospital, the Pakistani intern put a pint of Antibiotics into my arm! warned of the danger of puncture wounds? Like it was my fault.

The Sgt. said he would come back next Friday? He never did.
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Old October 21, 2019, 03:53 PM   #31
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I can only speak to the cases I’ve reviewed but in the two dozen or so stabbings I looked at, knives were rarely “instant.”
I am sure you were not reviewing many cases of folks trained to use knives. For the vast majority of people, a knife is more of a detriment than an advantage. There are blows using a knife that are instantly incapacitating and there are blows that are fatal in one cut.

As a weapon, for those who know how to use them, knives are as deadly if not more deadly than gun for their very small niche of use.

Someone who properly employs a knife will have a fight ending cut delivered before their opponent realizes they are in a knife fight.

Someone who is trained and properly employs a knife will have a fatal blow delivered before their opponent realizes they are in a knife fight.

That being said, a knife is much more useful as a survival tool than a combat tool.

Last edited by davidsog; October 22, 2019 at 10:03 AM.
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Old October 21, 2019, 05:38 PM   #32
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Blades don't make noise to announce that you've been cut, sliced or stabbed. You may not otherwise know you've been wounded at the moment.

As with other types of wounding, different types of anatomical "targets" wounded by blades (or sharp tools that cause perforating wounding) are often referred to as "timers" and "switches".

The best way to not be wounded by a knife or other cutting implement (or club, bludgeon, flail, etc) is to create and maintain distance so it can't reach you.

A Pyrrhic victory isn't something to be sought. It might label the victor, but being a victor isn't always the same thing as being the winner, all things considered.
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Old October 23, 2019, 02:29 AM   #33
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Some of the 911 highjackers had taped box knives to the bottoms of their shoes and managed to carry off a physical attack after hours of observation and several searches.
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Yep and were even able to cut the head off a NYC cop who ran up to assist the Lead FA in 1st Class as she was being beheaded.
I am unaware of this occurrence and cant find anything on it. Could you possibly elaborate?
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Old October 23, 2019, 03:56 PM   #34
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I'm not much of a knife person but have trained with them for many years, both as an LEO and martial artist. True; one usually doesn't even become aware of a knife until after the confrontation. A couple of officers were responding to a call at a dive where a guy had hit another with a beer bottle. The subdued the troublemaker and finally cuffed him. When they got him outside to the patrol car, one of the LEO had the bottom half of his tie fall off. The unseen knife took his tie and cut the shirt but fortunately missed the skin.

I always taught that the first thing is to always be aware of one's surroundings and visualize any possible attacks. Second, always keep others far enough from them so that in order for them to touch you they will have to take a step forward. Three, if a knife attack is a possibility the gun should already be in the hand. I typically carry two knives on me most all the time. I do walk with a cane outside of my home and am trained to use it as a weapon. The big takeaway from this is to be aware of what or whom happens to be near you.
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Old October 23, 2019, 05:58 PM   #35
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Solid advice Hanshi!
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Old October 23, 2019, 08:51 PM   #36
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I hate to speak simply anecdotally but I've had at least a half dozen people try to take me out with a knife or similar weapon.

Obviously none of them knew what they were doing or I'd already be dead.

Knives are VERY effective in the right hands and in the right situations.
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Old October 23, 2019, 09:31 PM   #37
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Zoo, a half dozen different people tried to take you out? Either you live in a very bad neighborhood, you don't pay your gambling bets, or your real name is Tony Soprano...?? Which is it?
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Old October 23, 2019, 09:36 PM   #38
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The other lesson in this

is that it may not pay to be discourteous to people. It's always tempting to show strength, contempt, cleverness (clever is an insult, not a kudo), etc. It may make you feel big, but may also trigger an unexpected attack.

When I was much much younger and relatively new to driving, some guy walked between cars into the street causing me to swerve and stop short. My 18 year old idiot self threw him a bird. He responded by reaching into his coat and pulling a revolver. I drove across a busy intersection against the light to get away from him. I've never again felt it necessary to visually display contempt no matter how tempting it may be.

You can talk about rights and pride and everything else - but it's cold comfort if some nutcase has put you in a box for a dirt nap.
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Old October 23, 2019, 09:44 PM   #39
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Shurshot, lol, just an old retired street cop who had a good nose for trouble.
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Old October 23, 2019, 09:49 PM   #40
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I should also note that it is my opinion that only a disgusting individual doesn't pay their gambling debts!
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Old October 24, 2019, 06:53 AM   #41
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Shurshot, lol, just an old retired street cop who had a good nose for trouble.
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Old October 24, 2019, 08:45 AM   #42
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If you are going to involve yourself in the situation, you better up your situation awareness. The iPad distraction in the video reminds me how so many people are constantly looking down at their phone and unaware of what's going on around them.
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Old November 4, 2019, 07:02 AM   #43
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which knife is better pressed or forged
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Old December 1, 2019, 09:15 AM   #44
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ask the folks in London about knife attacks. Usman Kahn schooled the locals the other day. Of course he be dead now so he can't take questions.
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Old December 1, 2019, 06:44 PM   #45
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We hope for incompetent or undetermined attackers. At the very least we hope we are not a primary target or the decision to use force has not already been made.

The aggressor nearly always has every advantage: time, place, and method of attack. Regardless of combat skills (those outside of social or identifying skills) and equipment those things are tough to overcome.

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Old December 1, 2019, 09:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by shurshot
Auquila, I don't have a link. I recently attended a use of force / LEO training and the instructor mentioned the revised / 35 foot distance as 21 feet was never set in stone to begin with, but as a SUGGESTED bare minimum distance back when Surviving Edged weapons first came out.
21-feet was a number that was derived from actual field testing, but it was applicable only to uniformed patrol officers at the time.

Dennis Tueller was, at the time, a sergeant and the training officer for his department. He was looking for a way to help rookie officers more quickly develop a "spidey sense" of when they might be in danger. What he came up with was what we now know as the "Tueller Drill." The 21-foot "rule" came out of that and was appropriated by any number of trainers, and put forth as a "rule." It was never a rule.

Tueller's goal was to demonstrate to officers that a person farther away than arm's length could still be a threat. The experiment he set up began with finding out how long it took for the average officer to draw from his duty holster and fire one round at a target. The average time for the class he was working with was 1.5 seconds.

The next step was to place a person armed with a rubber knife, in front of an officer who was in his street uniform and wearing his duty gear. The knife-wielding assailant was initially facing away from the officer. At a signal, the assailant would turn, run toward the officer, and stab him in the chest. They conducted this drill starting from various distances, and they found that the average assailant could stab the officer within the 1.5 seconds from as far away as 21 feet.

The lesson, which again was intended strictly for uniformed patrol officers, was that a person standing within 21 feet was a potential threat. It didn't mean every cop should automatically draw down on and shoot any suspect within 21 feet, it was intended to teach the younger cops that when they were within that distance they should look sharp and be prepared to take immediate action.

A number of years later, after he had retired, Tueller commented that the newer duty holsters typically have better retention systems that require more time to draw from, and for that reason the 1.5 seconds and the 21 foot distance needed to be revised. This was in an article written by him. In that article, he did not attempt to quantity either a new time or a new distance; he only said the old numbers aren't valid any more. If he or anyone has repeated the actual Tueller drill with current-issue duty holsters and weapons, I haven't seen any reports.

35 feet might well be what the revised number would be. BUT ... the Tueller Drill applied only to uniformed patrol officers drawing duty firearms from duty holsters. Irrespective of how many trainers teach their own bastardized variants of the Tueller Drill, I have not encountered anyone who has actually run the full program the way Tueller developed it, but for average "civilians" carrying in street cloths, either IWB or OWB, and possibly wearing a jacket or parka or sweatshirt.
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Old December 3, 2019, 08:06 AM   #47
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...but it was applicable only to uniformed patrol officers at the time.
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The lesson, which again was intended strictly for uniformed patrol officers...
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35 feet might well be what the revised number would be. BUT ... the Tueller Drill applied only to uniformed patrol officers drawing duty firearms from duty holsters. Irrespective of how many trainers teach their own bastardized variants of the Tueller Drill, I have not encountered anyone who has actually run the full program the way Tueller developed it, but for average "civilians" carrying in street cloths, either IWB or OWB, and possibly wearing a jacket or parka or sweatshirt.
Would you please clarify what you mean by this comment that you made in your post. You reiterated it three times, but I'm still not sure I see what you are trying to impress.

Are you merely saying that for everyone else other than a person with an open carry (not concealed under any garment) OWB holster, that the danger distance would be longer than we might assume?
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Old December 3, 2019, 09:53 AM   #48
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Would you please clarify what you mean by this comment that you made in your post. You reiterated it three times, but I'm still not sure I see what you are trying to impress.

Are you merely saying that for everyone else other than a person with an open carry (not concealed under any garment) OWB holster, that the danger distance would be longer than we might assume?
There are several factors involved.

A non-LEO will be carrying concealed. That could increase the time from decision to presentation.

OTOH, most CCW carriers are not using a retention holster, so that could decrease draw time.

Your question is not easily answered without extensive field research.

MY guess, and I emphasize that it's a guess, is that these two factors will balance out.
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Old December 3, 2019, 10:47 AM   #49
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Would you please clarify what you mean by this comment that you made in your post. You reiterated it three times, but I'm still not sure I see what you are trying to impress.

Are you merely saying that for everyone else other than a person with an open carry (not concealed under any garment) OWB holster, that the danger distance would be longer than we might assume?
I said it three times because I thought it was an important point. Apparently despite my trying to be clear, I failed. Let me try again:

I'm saying the distance would probably be different. I didn't say (or imply) greater, although that's probably the case.

Remember, Tueller's experiment started with timing how long it took his officers to draw from a duty holster and fire one shot. On average, at the time he developed the drill, that time was 1.5 seconds. The 21-foot distance was then determined by seeing how much ground the knife-wielding assailant could cover in 1.5 seconds. That's the point: The time to draw and fire determined the distance -- he didn't pick a distance out of thin air.

So if you can draw from your carry holster and get off a shot in 1.5 seconds, 21 feet is a valid number for you. If it takes you 2.5 seconds to draw and get off a shot, then a hypothetical assailant could theoretically start from considerably farther away and still get to you before you could get off a shot. How much farther? I don't know. If you can consistently get your first shot off in 1.0 seconds, then for you the distance might be as close as 15 or 12 feet.

We also need to remember that not all assailants are physically equal. Some will be faster/quicker than others. Even if you can draw in 1.5 seconds, do the drill with ten different "assailants" and you'll probably get at least five or six different distances. In developing his Tueller Drill, Tueller used averages for both the 1.5 seconds and the 21 foot distance.

That's why it's important to understand what the drill was intended for. Too many instructors teach "the 21-foot rule" as if we are supposed to automatically draw down on and shoot anyone who strays within 21 feet of our bodies. That was NOT what Tueller was trying to convey. His intention was to show rookie officers when they needed to turn on their spidey sense -- when to be more alert to a potential threat, and to perhaps do something to tip the odds back in their favor, such as put their hand on their gun, or take a couple of steps backward to increase the distance. It was a guideline, not a "rule," and it absolutely wasn't a blessing to start shooting anytime a potential threat closed to within 21 feet.
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Old December 3, 2019, 03:42 PM   #50
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There is another side to the 21-foot "rule" and that is a defense against un and under-informed people claiming "he was 20 feet away and all he had was a knife, you were not in danger!" or something to that effect, and that therefore shooting the attacker who was 20 feet away was a bad shoot.

The point was not to set a distance as such but to prove that even a police officer "ready and armed" could be at risk when the attacker was still far enough away that most people ASSUMED there was no risk at that distance.
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