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Old October 23, 2020, 03:30 PM   #101
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I carry a light and also have one mounted to my pistol. Something like the Streamlight TLR-7, InForce APLc, SureFire XC-1, Olight Mini Valkyrie, etc are all fairly small and lightweight and don’t add much to the bulk of carrying. That said you do need a holster that accommodates it.

The why is because I may be using one of my hands/arms to render aid, deliver blows in the event of a close quarters attack, or I might simply be injured. When using a weapon mounted light you do not, as mentioned above, want to be pointing the light at what is unknown to be a threat. You can use the spill of the beam to illuminate a fairly large area. Generally speaking I still use the handheld for most things I do, but I like the option. To each their own.


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Old October 23, 2020, 04:46 PM   #102
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stephen426.... The Glock 43X has the Glock 19 sized frame....
The Glock 19 is a double stack frame, the 43X is single stack. They are not the same width.




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I understand that your church may have people who are uncomfortable with guns, but not announcing armed security could lead to “friendly fire” situations. Other parishioners may be armed and think that a designated armed security team member may be a threat. You and the security lead may be much better trained than other parishioners.
This what has puzzled me since the start of the thread. The fear of printing and offending members of the congregation tells me only a select few know anything about this armed security team. That's a mistake IMO.
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Old October 23, 2020, 04:54 PM   #103
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stephen426 I had a crazy idea when they were talking about arming teachers after the Marjorie Stoneman Douglass school shooting. If there are. Bunch of armed teachers, how do responding officers know who the threat is. There is no way for them to know all the teachers in all the schools.
<---teacher
True. Which has bearing on anyone choosing to carry a firearm anytime, anyplace. Police arriving on scene will likely consider everyone as a threat until they believe you are no longer a threat. Behave accordingly.



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That gave me the idea of a color coded sash with the church name and security team on it. While a vest would be ideal, you can’t pull one on that quickly, especially when responding to a threat. I’m thinking maybe some kind of rolled up ribbon that has church security might reduce the chance of being mistake as a threat. This would have to be quick to deploy and discreet to carry.
Maybe. but just like fake badges, you can buy your own meaning the bad guys can buy them too.
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Old October 23, 2020, 05:07 PM   #104
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@ dogtown tom,
Sorry, should have clarified height and length is Glock 19 sized, but definitely slimmer as the 43X is single stack.

As for the the security team “security sash”, a bad guy can only get a matching color if he or she knows what color the church uses. Hopefully someone on the security team would be calling in the cavalry and notify them what the security team is wearing.
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Old October 24, 2020, 01:23 AM   #105
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There has been a lot of discussion beyond the initial questions so forgive me if I missed anything. I've been looking at this as a specialized case of concealed carry since it looks like the security team is supposed to be incognito. Is that correct?

I've moved a lot for work in the last fifteen years or so. I've belonged to a handful of churches as a result. I've quietly carried a concealed firearm at all of them. Even with hugs or laying of hands, I don't think anyone has ever noticed. I've only shared the fact that I do when I've known it to appropriate.

I've done my best to find religiously conservative, Bible-believing churches. I don't know how much this is coincidence but I've befriended at least one other person who carried at each of those churches. At one of those churches, we used to have a monthly men's breakfast that was usually the core members. At one of these, the pastor actually raised the question and called upon us to be sheep dogs. I was pleasantly surprised by how many of the other guys had also been carrying the whole time. Of course, that pastor also asked us to remain quiet about it for congregants who had different views or might be nervous around guns.
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Old October 24, 2020, 04:49 AM   #106
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For .380, I was thinking the Remington RM380.
But, for 9mm...Springfield XD-M Elite 3.8
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Old October 24, 2020, 05:22 AM   #107
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As for the the security team “security sash”, a bad guy can only get a matching color if he or she knows what color the church uses.
...today.

No reason not to change colors weekly.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:54 AM   #108
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OP, what are the other members of the security team choosing to carry?

To meet your preferred action type of DA/SA, I might suggest a S&W Third Gen, maybe a single stack for thin profile.

Or an outside the box idea, since you are most familiar with Beretta M9s, maybe a Beretta 85, or if you can manage the grip width, a Beretta 84 or Browning BDA?
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Old October 24, 2020, 05:09 PM   #109
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1911 in .45ACP. Get trained w/ it beforehand or don't bother.
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Old October 24, 2020, 05:35 PM   #110
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Of course training is good. But don't untrained people stop robberies every day because they were armed and kinda prepared? Seems like I read about them every month in the Armed Citizen section of NRA magazines.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:01 PM   #111
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Don’t know if it has been mentioned, but that shooting in a Texas Church a few moths ago, where a trained shooter took out the bad guy from several feet away,,,Study the video,,, watching the other armed people also, and see his follow-up interview.
A lot to learn there.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:08 PM   #112
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@Kevin Royer and zxcvbob, read his response in this post. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=91
I’d venture to guess he has a bit more experience in been there done that than most of us on here.
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Old October 24, 2020, 08:11 PM   #113
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@CAMPJISTICE,

I noticed you asked about a concealable CZ. While I don’t have personal experience with the https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-2075-r...oy-14-rd-mags/CZ Rami, I have heard quite a few good things about it.
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Old October 24, 2020, 09:05 PM   #114
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CAP,
Have you talked to the rest of the security group?
Get a consensus on depth and method of concealment. That will help you pick a gun.
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Old October 24, 2020, 09:09 PM   #115
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"Simple and easy, don't go for a "mini pistol" with all its drawbacks, just change the way you dress so a decent size gun doesn't show." 

44 Amp summed it up. If your job is to watch over & protect, carry the proper tool for the job.
Consider this... if a violent bad guy shows up armed with a rifle, what do you want to be carrying?
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Old October 24, 2020, 10:18 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by shurshot
Consider this... if a violent bad guy shows up armed with a rifle, what do you want to be carrying?
The answer to that is "A bigger rifle." But that's not a practical answer where total concealment is the prime directive, so why even go there?
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Old October 25, 2020, 04:33 AM   #117
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"The answer to that is "A bigger rifle."  (AB)

That is your answer, NOT mine. I didn't insinuate or suggest carrying "a bigger rifle", YOU did. Isn't the topic of discussion concealment? How would the OP conceal a rifle in the aforementioned setting?? Perhaps you misread my post.

My point was / is to carry what is comforting and concealable and not what is just comfortable.

I'll be more specific so I don't get taken out of context again ... I would suggest concealing a full size service handgun over a much smaller and less effective weapon.

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Old October 25, 2020, 10:56 AM   #118
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CAP has already rejected that, for fear that one of the "security team" will notice it while he is fiddling with his radio and tattle to the rev.
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Old October 25, 2020, 02:03 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
"The answer to that is "A bigger rifle." (AB)

That is your answer, NOT mine. I didn't insinuate or suggest carrying "a bigger rifle", YOU did. Isn't the topic of discussion concealment? How would the OP conceal a rifle in the aforementioned setting?? Perhaps you misread my post.

My point was / is to carry what is comforting and concealable and not what is just comfortable.

I'll be more specific so I don't get taken out of context again ... I would suggest concealing a full size service handgun over a much smaller and less effective weapon.
No handgun, not even a so-called "full size service handgun," is going to provide much of an advantage (or even do much to dispel your tactical DISadvantage) when the opposition is armed with a rifle. Aside from that, the OP has already stated -- multiple times -- that he already has and knows how to use a full-size duty handgun, and that he is looking for something smaller and more concealable.

I confess to being mystified as to why so many people insist on ignoring the criteria that the OP has very clearly spelled out.
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Old October 25, 2020, 03:26 PM   #120
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I am mystified at why the OP has not reported on checking out some of the guns recommended that appear to meet his criteria.
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Old October 25, 2020, 04:19 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I am mystified at why the OP has not reported on checking out some of the guns recommended that appear to meet his criteria.

Well, idk about you but many of the gun stores around me are pretty poorly stocked and getting my hands on pistols isn’t particularly easy. People also have lives and may not be able to get to a gun store in the week this thread has been in existence.


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Old October 25, 2020, 04:43 PM   #122
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Could be. The range/store here has not been picked over as bad as what I read about.
And I am retired which might give me a different idea about available time.
Amazing what you can get done in time previously wasted on professional jocks, though.
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Old October 25, 2020, 08:26 PM   #123
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Cap...If you want a specific recommendation that satisfies your concealment requirements but maximizes capacity with accuracy...then I'll offer the Sig P365. Mine handles as well as and offers the accuracy of my duty sized guns (P229 & P226). The newer P365 XL, may even be better if you can live with an add'l 1/2" of bbl. length.

Reliability: can't recall a bobble in over 1500 rounds of JHP's, FMJ's, and even LSWC reloads. It's been better than any other Sig I've owned and that's saying a lot...they've all been outstanding.

Trigger's better than my wife's slicked up Glocks and easy to get used to.

Sights are outstanding: big green dot front with tritium insert and tritium rear.

The grip holds 10 but is still thin and short enough to make concealment easy. I routinely wear it in an OWB that fits close to the hip in the 3-4 o'clock position.

And accuracy has been touted in the gun press since its inception. Mine will hold a mag full inside an inch and a half at ten yards from a two-handed Weaver stance. It truly surprised the heck out of me. I'd say it would be ideal for your use. Here are two pics posted here before. That group's ~1", center to center shot at 10 yds. Rod



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Old October 25, 2020, 08:32 PM   #124
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Aguila Blanca .....I confess to being mystified as to why so many people insist on ignoring the criteria that the OP has very clearly spelled out.
I'm mystified why someone wants a .380 or weaker when there are several 9x19 pistols with greater mag capacity and not blowback design or have tiny sights.

Disagreeing with the OP's criteria isn't the same as ignoring it. He claims training and experience, yet his criteria is exactly opposite what I would expect.
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Old October 25, 2020, 08:33 PM   #125
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He claims training and experience, yet his criteria is exactly opposite what I would expect.
He's not the primary person setting that criteria, as has been explained multiple times now.
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