9mm super?

DA/SA Fan · March 4, 2015, 01:20 PM

Just an idle thought. Has anyone cut down 9x23 brass to go nuclear in a 9mm? Of course the gun would need modification to hold together. Just wondering if it's ever been done and what kind of numbers would be possible.

RickB · March 4, 2015, 04:53 PM

Why not just get a 9x23?
I have reformed 9x23 into ".30 Super Luger", but I'm certainly not going to risk my Luger as a test piece!

Crankgrinder · March 4, 2015, 11:10 PM

357 sig?

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 4, 2015, 11:26 PM

To try and go "nuclear" in a case with such small capacity after a bullet is seated is not smart. Your margin for error is slim...very slim. If you want to shoot 35 cal bullets at "nuclear" levels, I would rethink cartridges.

9x25 Dillon comes to mind.

skizzums · March 4, 2015, 11:32 PM

I don't think it would be totally unreasonable if loading for a carbine with fantastic chamber support. or even a stout 9mm revolver.

Clark · March 4, 2015, 11:54 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have converted a Tokarev and a Star Super B to 9x23.
I work up to the limit of Winchester brass and to the limit of Starline 9mmSuperComp.

I have worked up 9x19mm to the limit of the brass.

I have worked up 380 to the limit of the brass.

It takes a lot of slide mass and recoil spring force to deal with what even 380 brass can do: 1185 fps 158 gr.

When the chamber walls are thick and the case support is good, the recoil will become horrible before the bass gives up.

Ways to deal with some of the increased recoil:
1) Triple recoil spring assembly
2) Double magazine spring in parallel to be fast enough to keep up with the recoil spring.
3) Add mass to the slide.
4) Stiffer trigger spring to reset faster

DA/SA Fan · March 5, 2015, 02:01 AM

Thanks Clark. Since the Winchester brass is more stout than normal 9x19 I was wondering if there would be much gain over a 9mm +P+. Obviously wouldn't be as potent as a full load 9x23 or 357 Sig but wondering if it might be a worthwhile step up for a small frame maximum capacity (9mm) handgun. Since you've "played" with high test 9x23 and 9x19 what would be your guess?

603Country · March 5, 2015, 09:16 AM

Clark, did you really get a 158 gr bullet to 1185 fps out of a 380 case? Is that even possible? Gotta say that's almost a "hold my beer and watch this" moment. Personally, I'll stand over here behind this big oak tree while you shoot that load.

Clark · March 5, 2015, 04:32 PM

DA/SA,
Winchester 9x23mmWin brass is built like rifle brass with thick web and thick tapered walls coming up from the web. That kind of case does a lot of good in 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp where there are terrible case support pistol barrels everywhere, but the 9mm pistols seem to not need heavy brass.
I weighed some 9x19mm brass for this post:
RP................. 58.0 gr
RP +P+ Nickel 58.5 gr
FC Nickel....... 53.7 gr
FC +P+ Nickel 53.3 gr
FC +P+ Nickel 53.7 gr

The RP brass has a 0.16" thick web in the case head.
Most 9mm pistol barrels have no more than 0.19" of feed ramp intrusion disruption of case support.
Beretta 92S 9mm .163"
Kel-Tec PF9 .190"
Kel-Tec P11 .190
Glock 19 9mm .190
Star Firestar .165
CZ52 9mm aftermarket .145
Tokarev 9mm .160

I have mostly worked with the Kel-tec P11 and primed RP 9mm brass to work up with all the bullets and all the powders.

603 Country,
Yes I did that, for only two shots over the chronograph. That was during my 15 handgun shots per chronograph period in my life.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Range report 8-9-2003
M1903 [Husqvarna 1907 9mm Browning bushed to .380] 5" barrel
1) Winchester factory 380 ammo 95 gr. 805 fps
2) WSP, 8.5 gr. Power Pistol, 158 gr. XTP, seated to 1.090", 1158, 1187 fps

I classify 380 into (3) levels.
Better case support and heavier slides get the hottest loads as seen above.
The Ruger LCP and Kel-tec P3AT get the wimpiest loads that are equivalent to Buffalo Bore +P 380... 1100 fps 90 gr Gold Dot

DA/SA Fan · March 5, 2015, 11:18 PM

Thank you so much! very informative.

March 4, 2015, 01:20 PM	#1
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	9mm super? Just an idle thought. Has anyone cut down 9x23 brass to go nuclear in a 9mm? Of course the gun would need modification to hold together. Just wondering if it's ever been done and what kind of numbers would be possible. __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

March 4, 2015, 04:53 PM	#2
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Why not just get a 9x23? I have reformed 9x23 into ".30 Super Luger", but I'm certainly not going to risk my Luger as a test piece! __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

March 4, 2015, 11:26 PM	#4
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	To try and go "nuclear" in a case with such small capacity after a bullet is seated is not smart. Your margin for error is slim...very slim. If you want to shoot 35 cal bullets at "nuclear" levels, I would rethink cartridges. 9x25 Dillon comes to mind. __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

March 4, 2015, 11:32 PM	#5
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	I don't think it would be totally unreasonable if loading for a carbine with fantastic chamber support. or even a stout 9mm revolver. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 4, 2015, 11:54 PM	#6
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I have converted a Tokarev and a Star Super B to 9x23. I work up to the limit of Winchester brass and to the limit of Starline 9mmSuperComp. I have worked up 9x19mm to the limit of the brass. I have worked up 380 to the limit of the brass. It takes a lot of slide mass and recoil spring force to deal with what even 380 brass can do: 1185 fps 158 gr. When the chamber walls are thick and the case support is good, the recoil will become horrible before the bass gives up. Ways to deal with some of the increased recoil: 1) Triple recoil spring assembly 2) Double magazine spring in parallel to be fast enough to keep up with the recoil spring. 3) Add mass to the slide. 4) Stiffer trigger spring to reset faster __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

March 4, 2015, 11:10 PM	#3
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	357 sig?

March 5, 2015, 02:01 AM	#7
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	Thanks Clark. Since the Winchester brass is more stout than normal 9x19 I was wondering if there would be much gain over a 9mm +P+. Obviously wouldn't be as potent as a full load 9x23 or 357 Sig but wondering if it might be a worthwhile step up for a small frame maximum capacity (9mm) handgun. Since you've "played" with high test 9x23 and 9x19 what would be your guess? __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

March 5, 2015, 09:16 AM	#8
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Clark, did you really get a 158 gr bullet to 1185 fps out of a 380 case? Is that even possible? Gotta say that's almost a "hold my beer and watch this" moment. Personally, I'll stand over here behind this big oak tree while you shoot that load.

March 5, 2015, 11:18 PM	#10
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	Thank you so much! very informative. __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"