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Old December 21, 2013, 07:25 PM   #1
Marco Califo
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Copper Fouling Cleaner = Ammonia?

I just opened a new bottle of Barnes copper fouling cleaner, and after removing the seal, I have one word: Ammonia! Checked the ingredients, yep, ammonia and antifreeze (or some kind of glycol). A good soaked swabbing and then patches that were greenish - seems to work.
So then, would a patch wetted with household ammonia work just as well?
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Old December 21, 2013, 08:45 PM   #2
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Household would be very strong. Get it out of your barrel right away. You can use windex with great results,but also get it out of your barrel right away.
I believe Howa barrel break in talks about using windex.

Try Bore Tec,stuff works awesome
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Old December 21, 2013, 08:50 PM   #3
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Household ammonia is actually pretty weak compared to commercial grade ammonia.

Still, it isn't something I'd want hanging around my rifle bore for any length of time.

There are plenty of home mixed cleaning solution recipes on the internet if you care to do the google search. In my experience commercial products are worth the money.

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Old December 22, 2013, 09:53 AM   #4
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At one time there was a lot of military surplus cleaning solvent sold at gun shows and shops, real cheap.
The stuff in those large, beat up green cans.
It was heavily fortified with ammonia.
The instructions said to follow the cleaning with dry patches, until they showed the barrel was clean, and then swab with an oily patch.
For years that's what I used and never saw any barrel damage.
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Old December 22, 2013, 11:55 AM   #5
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An old recipe I use is about 3 parts janitorial strength ammonia, 28% and one part liquid Ivory dish soap. I've used it in my Lee Enfield, a Swedish Mauser, and my Mosin Nagant, all WWII vintage with "sloppy" barrels. I also use it in my M1 Garand with a new barrel. Works quite well for me. My handguns all shoot lead, so it's not necessary to clean them with my ammonia stuff. I have seen no damage when solution is left in the barrels overnight...
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Old December 22, 2013, 02:46 PM   #6
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g.willikers,

I still have one of those old green cleaning solution cans. Still has cleaning solution in it. Been saving it for when a rifle REALLY needed a good scrubbing.

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Old December 22, 2013, 02:54 PM   #7
Marco Califo
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Windex

Just for grins and giggles, I ran a couple of patches soaked in Windex through the same barrel, after shooting 50 more rounds.
I will say the Windex patches caught much, much more grime than the dry and RemOil patches when alternating all three.
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Old December 22, 2013, 05:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo
So then, would a patch wetted with household ammonia work just as well?
No, household Ammonia is a very weak solution about 5%.

"Household ammonia" or "ammonium hydroxide" is a solution of NH3 in water. The strength of such solutions is measured in units of baume (density), with 26 degrees baume (about 30 weight percent ammonia at 15.5 °C) being the typical high concentration commercial product.[6] Household ammonia ranges in concentration from 5 to 10 weight percent ammonia.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tm...s/Ammonia.html
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Old December 22, 2013, 08:34 PM   #9
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I've been dealing with copper fouling this past week. I was getting a lot of copper out just using patches, but there seemed no end in sight.

I called a gunsmith and he told me to just use some plastic and a rubber band to plug the barrel and then squirt the solvent in there until the barrel filled up. He recommended using Hoppe #9 Copper Solvent because it has no ammonia. I let it sit overnight and the next morning I let it drain out.

I started running patches after that alternating dry and wet ones. They quickly improved in color and after about 20 patches I was done.

Took my rifle to the range the next, and saw accuracy dramatically improve. I've since done some research and the Bore Tech Eliminator seems to be the all purpose gun cleaner that removes both carbon and copper. Check the reviews on Midway's sight. I will be using that from now on.
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Old December 23, 2013, 04:59 AM   #10
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Hoppes #9 does contain ammonia.

-TL
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Old December 23, 2013, 06:38 AM   #11
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When I get noticeable accumulation of copper in my bore I go straight to the Bore-Tech Eliminator. It works so well that when my accuracy drops off a little, it brings it back quickly and safely.
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Old December 23, 2013, 07:55 AM   #12
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Ammonia neutralizes acid residue.
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Old December 23, 2013, 09:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eppie
I've been dealing with copper fouling this past week. I was getting a lot of copper out just using patches, but there seemed no end in sight.
Getcha sum Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner. Squirt it in, let it sit for a few hours or overnight then patch it out.
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Old December 23, 2013, 11:03 AM   #14
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KG-12
Tough to argue w/ these test data results [HERE]

Been using for ~5 years.
- Slop it in
- Sit 5-10 minutes
- DryPatch incredible [brown] crud out

If you have layered coper/powder/copper/powder deposits. it also eats through to get the powder as well.

Other attributes (not in priority order):
No smell
Water soluble
Doesn't eat your kitchen floor finish
Wife quit complaining

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Old December 23, 2013, 12:02 PM   #15
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I won an old 1989 Ruger #1V 223 on line auction in 2006 for $500.

When the rifle arrived from CA it was full of Copper.
I cleaned it for hours. I do not use Ammonia. I use KG12 or wipeout.
I took it to the range and shot 6 groups with ground squirrel hunting ammo 15 gr Blue Dot 35 gr Vmax.

Why would anyone sell that rifle for $500?

They must have not had Copper cleaning technology.
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Old December 24, 2013, 12:59 AM   #16
Marco Califo
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Cleaned the same gun again

Cleaned the same gun again, using patches wetted with Barnes CR10 and have a pile of blue-ish patches. So the Barnes product does work and I had more copper in my barrel than I thought. Finally got a clean(er) one and ran A Rem Oiled patch through and sprayed all metal surfaces. I do believe the CR10 patches got successively easier to push through.
I wonder if the copper I had built up in the barrel was causing it to heat up so quickly?
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Old December 24, 2013, 04:27 AM   #17
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I use sweets to remove stubborn copper. I have used Butches Bore shine, KG-12, Barnes, Shooters choice, Hoppes, wipe out and probably a couple more. I also own a bore scope, I can see when my barrel is clean. All those mentioned except sweets took out most of the copper but not all. On those barrels that had the stubborn copper, sweets was the only one that took all the copper out. I am talking about barrels that are heat checked or those that have heavy machine marks.
When a cleaning product with ammonia is used, and you are done, you need to put a moderate amount of gun oil in to neutralize the ammonia. Read the label most manufactures tell how to neutralize the ammonia based product and recommend one of their products that will do do the task. They also tell you how long to let it sit in the barrel before it starts to damage it.
As far as the home made ammonia based products beware! Its pay up now or pay more later.
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Old December 24, 2013, 07:18 AM   #18
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I see posts that say to get the ammonia out of the barrel right away. This would be foreign to me because I used to work with ammonia in large plant refrigeration and all steel piping was used, so there must be some other reason to get it out of the barrel.
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Old December 24, 2013, 09:00 AM   #19
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I am puzzling about that too. Ammonia attacks copper and brass but should be safe on steel.

The most effective way I've found to rid barrel of copper foul is electrolysis. I use 2 parts of janitorial grade ammonia to one part of distilled water. 1 mA DC current for 10 minutes. The steel rod, negative electrode, would come out either like a copper mine or dirty like a today's politician.

-TL
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Old December 24, 2013, 09:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Marco Califo said: I wonder if the copper I had built up in the barrel was causing it to heat up so quickly?
Copper fouling is an obstruction to the bullet inside the barrel. It creates additional pressure and heat, in addition to affecting accuracy.

Quote:
mehavey said:KG-12 Tough to argue w/ these test data results [HERE]
You're right, it's tough to argue. I stand corrected on Bore Tech Eliminator. I will order the KG-12, although I have a little concern about what it will do to my metal cleaning rod and cleaning jag.
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Old December 24, 2013, 10:09 AM   #21
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KG-12 doesn't touch anything but copper & powder. (`hasn't/won't affect your cleaning rod.
And since you dry patch out with the same jag as you've wet patched, the jag isn't left with
anything on it when you put it away. If in doubt, just rinse it off with water.)

So far, I've not been able to find anything wrong w/ the stuff (and the wife has quit complaining)

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Old December 24, 2013, 11:04 PM   #22
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I'll dang sure try it.... when I run out of Bore Tech..

no really I will try it.
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Old December 25, 2013, 06:34 AM   #23
Jimro
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Quote:
I see posts that say to get the ammonia out of the barrel right away. This would be foreign to me because I used to work with ammonia in large plant refrigeration and all steel piping was used, so there must be some other reason to get it out of the barrel.
Quote:
I am puzzling about that too. Ammonia attacks copper and brass but should be safe on steel.
Take a look at this report on ammonia vapors and note the numbers for galvanized steel. http://age-web.age.uiuc.edu/bee/RESE...sion/nh3-1.htm

Any time you have an elecrolytic solution in contact with more than one metal, you run the risk of setting up a galvanic reaction where one metal is oxidized as another is reduced. Ferric based metals are extremely easy to oxidize, as referrenced in this table: http://inspectapedia.com/BestPractices/Table2-11.jpg

For those of us who don't want ammonia solutions hanging around our rifle bore too long, it is the same reason you run dry patches and then an oiled patch down your bore at the end of a cleaning session, to get all the aqueous solution out, and protect the steel.

I hope this is helpful.

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Old December 25, 2013, 08:37 AM   #24
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Ammonia is not to be left in the barrel, that's given, as there is no reason to. That is not what I am puzzling about. When it comes to solvent for getting rid of copper fouling, I keep hearing "This solvent is no good because it contains ammonia".

To me, ammonia is effective and economical. Sure you should clean it out when you are done.

-TL
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Old December 25, 2013, 12:28 PM   #25
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A lot of people are "chemically illiterate" and buy into the advertisement that somehow "ammonia free" is a good thing, then in order to make themselves feel better about their ignorance proclaim that ammonia is evil. http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Ultima-L...uctinfo/602-4/ , http://www.midwayusa.com/product/932...-12-oz-aerosol, and http://www.mpro7.com/m-pro7-copper-remover.html for example.

Then again, someone at sometime probably soaked their bore overnight and ended up with a "frosting" effect that wasn't good for accuracy at all.

I have no problem using a cleaner that has ammonia in it, I just don't leave them hanging around my rifle bore, same as I don't let hydrophylic salts sit in my bore, nor any aqueous solutions. Doesn't mean I haven't shot corrosive ammo or washed out my bore with water after.

Froggy has a good write up that goes into more detail on what products worked, and noted that only janitor and household ammonia contributed to corrosion of the test steel. http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm

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