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Old March 22, 2010, 12:45 PM   #1
ADB
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12 gauge handloading: soft rubber loads?

I'm about to get a handloading kit for my 12 gauge, and one of my first planned loads is going to be batches of soft rubber pellets loaded for low velocity to be used for animal control, particularly scaring off strange dogs. Does anyone have recommendations or insight to share when it comes to producing such a load?

I figure that I'm looking at roughly 100 grains worth of payload, delivered at airsoft type velocities of 300 feet per second. What I can't find is either load data to tell me how to do that, or an online calculator which will tell me the right powder load. Any suggestions?
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Old March 22, 2010, 01:09 PM   #2
Edward429451
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I think it's a bad idea and you may get into trouble doing it. More trouble than if you were using regular lead. If there's no protection going on with the shot then it be construed that you are having fun shooting dogs with rubber bullets? mmmight wanna think that one over.
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Old March 22, 2010, 11:36 PM   #3
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Just a thought but you might be putting together a very effective rubber stopper. I think that you do not have a published load in that it might be a little unpredictable on pressure.
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Old March 22, 2010, 11:50 PM   #4
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Look up LTL or Less Than Lethal on the net. I know the prison systems use them as well as some police departments for riot control, but don't know where to get them.
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Old March 23, 2010, 05:16 AM   #5
87mustang
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"scaring" off dogs

i have the same problem with "strange" dogs roaming around. instead of rubber pellets, i suggest lead pellets and "scare" the spirit right out of these worthless dogs that are owned by less than intelligent people who let them roam around! the small town i live in apparently attracts people who think that their dogs are entitled to everyone elses yard and it's ok to dig holes in my garden and poop in my yard. I have already had one confrontation with a dog owner who was warned to keep their worthless animals out of my yard.
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Old March 23, 2010, 06:19 AM   #6
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LTL

A problem that you are going to run into is low pressure in the shotshell itself. The payload of rubber pellets does not provide much back pressure to help advance ignition.
I have loaded very light "chaser" loads to keep black bears off the decks adjacent to my home. (Don't have the load data by me but the charge was either Bullseye or RedDot). As I recall, the powder charge was a standard low pressure load from Lyman; the big change was the payload (Note: the general advice when loading shotshells is to use published data exactly as written as pressure excursions may result. This type of loading ignores that caution. Be warned.)
I used round plastic beads about the size of 000 buck shot.
They worked but I don't know whether it was because of the pellets or the noise.
You need to find a way to compress the charge a bit so that it can burn properly. I used an old fashioned Nitro card/fiberwads/ OS card/roll crimp to set up mine. The column was compressed with 30lbs pressure.
About legality. That I will leave to others. Where I am is very rural and use of this type of shotshell is not a danger to other people.
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Old March 24, 2010, 12:14 AM   #7
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Sounds like trouble... fun, fun trouble...
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Old March 24, 2010, 06:45 AM   #8
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I think that shooting wayward pets is going to get you into legal trouble UNLESS they are in the process of attacking a person or another animal when you shoot them. At best, you would need to pay some vet bills. At worst, you could get jail time for "animal cruelty."

Feral dogs are a different situation. In packs, they can be quite dangerous, even to humans, especially children. Most areas recognize that they need to be "removed" by either shooting them or capturing and "euthenizing" them (depending on how "civilized" folks in the area want to consider themselves). And, there is no legal "protection" for them like there is for game animals, migratory animals, endangered animals, etc., etc.

Still, it is potentially debatable whether it is "crueler" to "scare them away" with less-than-lethal shot instead of killing them outright. They don't get to go to a clinic and get patched-up; they need to continue to survive in the wild with whatever wound they get, or die a slow death. Think about what PETA could make it sound like in court if some of your 300 fps rubber (or even Airsoft) pellets happened to catch a feral dog in the eyes and blind it, so that it ends-up dead from starvation and its body is found with YOUR pellets in its eyes.

So, if you DO decide to "repel" animals with less-than-lethal shot, I think you need to work toward making sure that the experience is "educational" for them without maiming them. That is probably going to require careful shot placement as well as load development.

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Old March 24, 2010, 08:47 PM   #9
ADB
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Quote:
i suggest lead pellets and "scare" the spirit right out of these worthless dogs that are owned by less than intelligent people who let them roam around!
I don't want to go around killing dogs if I don't have to, when I don't know if they're strays or people's pets. For that matter, I don't even want to shoot strays. If it's between that and them harming someone I'll do it, but I'm not going to shoot a dog just because it happens to be there. All I want is if they're persistently hanging around, to tell them that they're not welcome on my land, and to do so from a safe distance. The best way I can think to do that is some rubber pellets stinging their ass.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:55 PM   #10
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You're better off with some bear spray and a long walking stick - bop them on the nose or spray the bear spray in their nose - in any event, they'll forever leave you alone, you won't end up in jail for discharging a firearm or "harming an animal"
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Old March 24, 2010, 09:18 PM   #11
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All I want is if they're persistently hanging around, to tell them that they're not welcome on my land, and to do so from a safe distance. The best way I can think to do that is some rubber pellets stinging their ass.
Have you considered a paintball gun. Those sting when they hit, but do NOT penetrate. You could still blind the dog with one if you hit him in the eye. But, they are a LOT easier to aim than a shotgun pattern, especially a shotgun pattern made with strange projectiles like rubber bullets or Airsoft pellets. I'll bet those patterns have a lot of "pellets" that go outside the main pattern.

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Old March 24, 2010, 11:38 PM   #12
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I would use a bb gun. they are not loud and won't draw attention with the noise a shotgun might.
I would think something along the lines of 650 fps in the back leg of a dog would probably not penetrate from 10 yards or more.
Or a cheap semi auto bb pistol.
If they are acting aggresive that is another story and law enforcement should be called. I would get a copy of the report for later if you ever had to shoot one dead you would already have given the owner a chance to do something about the problem. I would get a copy of that report also if it comes to that.
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Old March 25, 2010, 01:42 AM   #13
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I don't know where you are or what your neighbor situation is but in my little corner of the woods the choice is they are collared and friendly. I capture, tie them and try to contact owner. Often owner will show up in a short period of time looking for his dog and find him tied to my front porch. If he is uncollared and/or unfriendly they get shot with a serious load. Not to be mean but feral dogs in a farming community is a hazard to livestock and sometimes to people just hiking in the nearby woods.

We had one jump up into the back of our pickup while we were dropping off feed for our heifers. My friends older brothers quick reaction with his carbine prevented anybody from getting hurt and the rest of the pack was hunted down by our neighbors. Don't mean to be mean but they aren't anything to fool with. You have no way of knowing if they are just lost dogs or feral dogs. Defend yourself.

Failing your willingness to do that the BB gun is probably your best alternative but don't get caught out in the open if it turns on you.
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Old March 25, 2010, 05:26 AM   #14
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if you decide to use the bear spray and long walking stick, i would suggest using both of them on the people who own the dogs you are having problems with as well as the dogs.

couple weeks ago i had the neighbors pit bull mutt come after me as i was getting out of my truck. i just missed him as i threw a 10 pound pipe wrench, but then he ran away. seen him again in my yard last night, but couldn't get a "warning shot" off at it. it especially pisses me off that they let this dog run around and there's kids in almost every house around.

this neighbor doesn't think it's a big deal.. we will see how big of a deal it is when i drag their worthless dog up on their deck.
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Old March 25, 2010, 12:12 PM   #15
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http://www.less-lethal.com/Spec%20Sh...%20pellets.pdf

As others have said, check the legality in your area.

That being said, here is the Product Spec Sheet of some of the riot control ammunition commonly used by law enforcement.

At one time I was instructor on this product line. I was asked by my agency to develope a certification program for training animal control officers on using this. I refused to certify them, but did agree to train them. The emphasis of the training I conducted was that this was only to be used against an animal if death was the desired outcome.

I can testify that a number of officers have used these as well as some of their other less lethal products on aggresive dogs with very good results. Rarely have the animals been killed / severely injured, but I feel obliged to re-itterate..DO NOT USE ON AN ANIMAL UNLESS DEATH IS AN ACCEPTABLE OUTCOME.
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Old March 25, 2010, 03:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
couple weeks ago i had the neighbors pit bull mutt come after me as i was getting out of my truck. i just missed him as i threw a 10 pound pipe wrench, but then he ran away. seen him again in my yard last night, but couldn't get a "warning shot" off at it. it especially pisses me off that they let this dog run around and there's kids in almost every house around.

this neighbor doesn't think it's a big deal.. we will see how big of a deal it is when i drag their worthless dog up on their deck.
Call your county animal control and report animal cruelty - they'll show up and fine him - hit him where it always hurts - the wallet
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Old March 25, 2010, 03:55 PM   #17
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Depending on the area and who is around I just shoot them with my bow. I make sure to use a good broad head, but it is quite and very lethal. A dog is nothing more than an animal and will do what ever it is inclined to do. It is the pet owners responsibility to keep the animal out of trouble and safe not another home or property owner. If the pet owner does not want to take care of their animal then I will take care of it once.

If you go messing around with loads it could get you hurt. I would rather shoot a trespassing dog and kill it than hurt my self.
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Old April 16, 2010, 02:42 AM   #18
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Why not shoot them in the butt with a pellet gun. I know I wanted to do that, but these are my neighbors dogs in the neighbors yard barking all darn day long.

I took care of it though, my way.
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Old April 16, 2010, 07:50 AM   #19
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Very bad idea to be shooting dogs and if reported you could get into serious trouble. I've always just used a BB gun (not a pellet gun) and shoot them in the hind quarters. The dogs are just being dogs -- it's the owners you want to talk to. Here in Alabama it's illegal to shoot even feral dogs.
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Old April 16, 2010, 08:57 AM   #20
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You can buy commercial loads. I keep some for just in case (no idea what situation). Sellier & Bellot (S&B) comes in several configs. I have 15 pellet buckshot but velocity probably higher than you want (~1300 fps). I think I got them from Natchez Shooting Supplies
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