how did they load back then? - Page 2

Hawg · February 27, 2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

The 44 cal revolver was loaded with a .440 RB or conical

Ya think? Lessee, .440 ball, .450 bore and chambers. What kept the balls from rolling out like a marble through a sewer pipe?

Quote:

I don't think there was much shaving of the ball that we do today making it dad-burn near a must to use a loading tool.

Had to have been shaving. I use a .454 ball with a hardness of 6. Pure lead is 5. I've never seen the need for a loading tool. A flat place to put stuff down helps but is not necessary.

simonkenton · February 27, 2009, 06:14 AM

Here is how Robert E. Lee loaded his pistol.
He said to his slave, and body servant, Mack Lee, "Please load my pistol."
In fifteen minutes, the slave replied, "Marse Robert, yo pistol is loaded."

Gbro · February 27, 2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

The 44 cal revolver was loaded with a .440 RB or conical

Ya, Your right, I did make a mistake on that.
My round balls are .448 and they are nice and snug and easy to load in frame.
I have loaded .451 "in frame" and I worry more about the lever/plunger as the ball is shaved.
Now the Lyman mold that my friend used to cast the .448 single cavity.was marked .451.
He made a mistake when he sent it back to Lyman because Lyman wouldn't give the mold back, but replaced it 1/2 price for a new .451 double cavity.
Good thing I have several hundred .448 RB's for plinking.
Another live and learn lesson.

Fingers McGee · February 27, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Ya think? Lessee, .440 ball, .450 bore and chambers. What kept the balls from rolling out like a marble through a sewer pipe?

Had to have been shaving. I use a .454 ball with a hardness of 6. Pure lead is 5. I've never seen the need for a loading tool. A flat place to put stuff down helps but is not necessary.
__________________
Your ramblin don't rattle me.

+1 If you're having trouble shaving lead with the loading lever on your revolvers; you're using the wrong balls.

Dingoboyx · March 7, 2009, 11:59 AM

I know the longarm dudes used to carry the balls in their mouths and shoved in some powder an spit a ball down the muzzle.... but I cant imagine running around with a mouth full of .45's..... and you would need lips like on the simsons to spit them into the old army?? (wouldnt want to cough either)
I always thought too... how annoying would it have been if you just got the last cap on about to cock and fire...... and the bad guy shot you?! how frustrating

Dreamer42 · April 9, 2009, 03:15 PM

Hello to all. I'm new to this forum, but have been shooting blackpowder since the 1970s in Jr. High, and firearms in general since I was a wee little kid.

I consider myself to be one of those "authentic-progressives" when it comes to this hobby (I have been reenacting CW since 1998) and I try to look at history as it was really done back then.
To confirm previous statements, most used factory prepared combustible paper, (animal) skin or foil cartridges. The packages were purchased in 6 rounds to a package. The packages were either cardboard (similar to modern 20 rd. centerfire cartridge boxes) or a block of wood drilled with holes for the cartridges. Some packages were "waxed" to provide some waterproofing. This made them easy to carry in a pocket, or leather pouch on the pistol belt.
Do a search on the web and you'll easily find pictures to copy. I make my repoduction boxes and labels (drawn on Adobe Illustrator) while tracing originals from the web.

As for loading I found about 18 - 19 grains fits nicely into the paper "cup" I made for the cartridge. More than 20 grains and the connical ball may not seat down far enough to rotate the cylinder. It is about 2" long and tapers from the size of the chamber to about 1/8". I use cigarette paper - less is more, just enough to make the cartridge. As for lubing the ball (I fire both round and connical) is use about 50/50 parafin and crisco. I just roll the ball around in the (dried) lubricant and set asside to dry (about 30 minutes). Then place the ball on top of the powder charge in the paper cartridge. The lube is sticky enough to keep the paper snug on the ball so it doesn't fall apart.
This method is very convenient, easy to carry and authentic. If you don't want to mess with the cardboard boxes, you might consider keeping them in some sort of round tin for safety. I made about 36 rounds in one evening while watching a movie (um...Outlaw Josey Whales)

Have fun!

P.S
I have never had a "chain fire" from not packing grease over the chambers. If your ball is the right size, a small ring of lead should come off when loading, thus sealing the chamber.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42
9th Texas/165th NY

Dreamer42 · April 9, 2009, 03:19 PM

Sorry...forgot to mention I pack a Navy Arms 1851 .36 Navy. Great pistol.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

Dingoboyx · April 9, 2009, 03:26 PM

You wouldn't want to accidently mistake one of those loads for a fag, and try to light up

You wouldnt want to inhale, thats for sure

I shoot Bp here in Oz, Got 2 Rem Old Army's Stainless, 3 Blue Pietta C&B New army Steel frame, brass guards .44's and a Uberti Colt .45 Dragoon

Step 1/ I load'em powder in 6, then balls in 6 then cap 6.... then SHOOT 6

....
step 2/ repeat step 1

Evidently in the old west, they could load on horseback at a gallop

I dont use a stand to load, I do everything off the bench, in my hands

vwjoe84 · April 9, 2009, 07:30 PM

There's several video's on youtube on how to make paper cartridges, all methods i've seen look like it would take about an hour to make 6 of them though.

Hawg · April 9, 2009, 09:14 PM

It doesn't take that long but they are time consuming to make. Nice to have when you're shooting tho.

madcratebuilder · April 9, 2009, 09:43 PM

I have seen the 'packaged' paper cartridges, even have some repros in some cases sets. I have made cartridges from rolling paper and rb.
My question is how prevalent were manufactured cartridges in more uncivilized areas? From reading period books I gather people carried several revolvers when they thought they would be in harms way. More so than carrying extra cylinders that has been made popular by movies.
Back to the OP, I load powder, grease cookie, then ball, a chamber at a time. I cap after all chambers are loaded.

Hawg · April 10, 2009, 01:58 PM

IMHO paper cartridges were more of a military thing. They were loaded with conicals whereas most civilians used round balls with loose powder.

tdmoparguy · April 10, 2009, 08:27 PM

What else can you use besides saltpeter to make combustible cartridges? I cant find any where I'm from.

mykeal · April 10, 2009, 08:47 PM

Surely the OTASCO store has stump remover.

tdmoparguy · April 10, 2009, 08:51 PM

We haven't had an OTASCO in 25 years

mykeal · April 10, 2009, 09:03 PM

Sorry.

Bad example. I'll try to be less specific. Landscaping and garden supplies stores that sell stump removers containing potassium nitrate, KNO3.

Actually, I think OTASCO closed in 1988, but who's counting.

long rider · April 10, 2009, 09:16 PM

HEY DINGO? what the hell is a fag?

**Mike Irwin** · April 10, 2009, 09:34 PM

"What else can you use besides saltpeter to make combustible cartridges? I cant find any where I'm from."

Collodion, which is cellulose nitrate dissolved in alchol and ether.

In the 1800s Colt and possibly other companies provided unitized cartridges where the powder charge was adhered to the bullet with collodion.

Collodion was apparently used to coat a mold and the powder was poured into the mold and a bullet seated. When the collodion dried, you had a complete cartridge (sans cap, of course).

The collodion was tough enough that the cartridge would stand up to fairly rough handling, and more importantly, it was waterproof.

Upon ramming the bullet home, the force fractured the collodion "skin," which allowed the flash to ignite the powder.

Collodion cartridges survived right up to the advent of metallic cartridges.

More information, and a picture, at this site:

http://www.christchurchgunclub.org/html/cgc_art_pc1.htm

**Mike Irwin** · April 10, 2009, 09:36 PM

HEY DINGO? what the hell is a fag?

The guy is Australian. That's a common nickname for a cigarette, after a faggot of wood.

He certainly doesn't mean a homosexual. That usage is particularly American.

long rider · April 10, 2009, 09:47 PM

Well stufffff me blue sport, how ya going bruce, fairdincome.

tdmoparguy · April 10, 2009, 09:56 PM

I just ordered 2lbs of saltpeter off of ebay. Also Mykeal i was born in 1988.

Hawg · April 10, 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

What else can you use besides saltpeter to make combustible cartridges? I cant find any where I'm from.

You don't need it for paper cartridges. You can use cigarette papers but tea bags work better.

March 7, 2009, 11:59 AM	#30
Dingoboyx Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: South East Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,513	G'day from down under I know the longarm dudes used to carry the balls in their mouths and shoved in some powder an spit a ball down the muzzle.... but I cant imagine running around with a mouth full of .45's..... and you would need lips like on the simsons to spit them into the old army?? (wouldnt want to cough either) I always thought too... how annoying would it have been if you just got the last cap on about to cock and fire...... and the bad guy shot you?! how frustrating

April 9, 2009, 03:15 PM	#31
Dreamer42 Junior Member Join Date: April 9, 2009 Posts: 2	BP paper cartridges Hello to all. I'm new to this forum, but have been shooting blackpowder since the 1970s in Jr. High, and firearms in general since I was a wee little kid. I consider myself to be one of those "authentic-progressives" when it comes to this hobby (I have been reenacting CW since 1998) and I try to look at history as it was really done back then. To confirm previous statements, most used factory prepared combustible paper, (animal) skin or foil cartridges. The packages were purchased in 6 rounds to a package. The packages were either cardboard (similar to modern 20 rd. centerfire cartridge boxes) or a block of wood drilled with holes for the cartridges. Some packages were "waxed" to provide some waterproofing. This made them easy to carry in a pocket, or leather pouch on the pistol belt. Do a search on the web and you'll easily find pictures to copy. I make my repoduction boxes and labels (drawn on Adobe Illustrator) while tracing originals from the web. As for loading I found about 18 - 19 grains fits nicely into the paper "cup" I made for the cartridge. More than 20 grains and the connical ball may not seat down far enough to rotate the cylinder. It is about 2" long and tapers from the size of the chamber to about 1/8". I use cigarette paper - less is more, just enough to make the cartridge. As for lubing the ball (I fire both round and connical) is use about 50/50 parafin and crisco. I just roll the ball around in the (dried) lubricant and set asside to dry (about 30 minutes). Then place the ball on top of the powder charge in the paper cartridge. The lube is sticky enough to keep the paper snug on the ball so it doesn't fall apart. This method is very convenient, easy to carry and authentic. If you don't want to mess with the cardboard boxes, you might consider keeping them in some sort of round tin for safety. I made about 36 rounds in one evening while watching a movie (um...Outlaw Josey Whales) Have fun! P.S I have never had a "chain fire" from not packing grease over the chambers. If your ball is the right size, a small ring of lead should come off when loading, thus sealing the chamber. - Jay Reid Dreamer42 9th Texas/165th NY

April 9, 2009, 03:19 PM	#32
Dreamer42 Junior Member Join Date: April 9, 2009 Posts: 2	Cartridges...continued Sorry...forgot to mention I pack a Navy Arms 1851 .36 Navy. Great pistol. - Jay Reid Dreamer42

April 9, 2009, 03:26 PM	#33
Dingoboyx Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: South East Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,513	Welcome dreamer You wouldn't want to accidently mistake one of those loads for a fag, and try to light up You wouldnt want to inhale, thats for sure I shoot Bp here in Oz, Got 2 Rem Old Army's Stainless, 3 Blue Pietta C&B New army Steel frame, brass guards .44's and a Uberti Colt .45 Dragoon Step 1/ I load'em powder in 6, then balls in 6 then cap 6.... then SHOOT 6 .... step 2/ repeat step 1 Evidently in the old west, they could load on horseback at a gallop I dont use a stand to load, I do everything off the bench, in my hands __________________ Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs

April 10, 2009, 09:16 PM	#42
long rider Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 669	HEY DINGO? what the hell is a fag? __________________ Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

February 27, 2009, 06:14 AM	#27
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Here is how Robert E. Lee loaded his pistol. He said to his slave, and body servant, Mack Lee, "Please load my pistol." In fifteen minutes, the slave replied, "Marse Robert, yo pistol is loaded."

April 9, 2009, 07:30 PM	#34
vwjoe84 Junior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 13	There's several video's on youtube on how to make paper cartridges, all methods i've seen look like it would take about an hour to make 6 of them though.

April 9, 2009, 09:14 PM	#35
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	It doesn't take that long but they are time consuming to make. Nice to have when you're shooting tho.

April 9, 2009, 09:43 PM	#36
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I have seen the 'packaged' paper cartridges, even have some repros in some cases sets. I have made cartridges from rolling paper and rb. My question is how prevalent were manufactured cartridges in more uncivilized areas? From reading period books I gather people carried several revolvers when they thought they would be in harms way. More so than carrying extra cylinders that has been made popular by movies. Back to the OP, I load powder, grease cookie, then ball, a chamber at a time. I cap after all chambers are loaded.

April 10, 2009, 01:58 PM	#37
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	IMHO paper cartridges were more of a military thing. They were loaded with conicals whereas most civilians used round balls with loose powder.

April 10, 2009, 08:27 PM	#38
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	What else can you use besides saltpeter to make combustible cartridges? I cant find any where I'm from.

April 10, 2009, 08:47 PM	#39
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Surely the OTASCO store has stump remover.

April 10, 2009, 08:51 PM	#40
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	We haven't had an OTASCO in 25 years

April 10, 2009, 09:03 PM	#41
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Sorry. Bad example. I'll try to be less specific. Landscaping and garden supplies stores that sell stump removers containing potassium nitrate, KNO3. Actually, I think OTASCO closed in 1988, but who's counting.

April 10, 2009, 09:34 PM	#43
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"What else can you use besides saltpeter to make combustible cartridges? I cant find any where I'm from." Collodion, which is cellulose nitrate dissolved in alchol and ether. In the 1800s Colt and possibly other companies provided unitized cartridges where the powder charge was adhered to the bullet with collodion. Collodion was apparently used to coat a mold and the powder was poured into the mold and a bullet seated. When the collodion dried, you had a complete cartridge (sans cap, of course). The collodion was tough enough that the cartridge would stand up to fairly rough handling, and more importantly, it was waterproof. Upon ramming the bullet home, the force fractured the collodion "skin," which allowed the flash to ignite the powder. Collodion cartridges survived right up to the advent of metallic cartridges. More information, and a picture, at this site: http://www.christchurchgunclub.org/html/cgc_art_pc1.htm __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 10, 2009, 09:36 PM	#44
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	HEY DINGO? what the hell is a fag? The guy is Australian. That's a common nickname for a cigarette, after a faggot of wood. He certainly doesn't mean a homosexual. That usage is particularly American. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 10, 2009, 09:47 PM	#45
long rider Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 669	Well stufffff me blue sport, how ya going bruce, fairdincome. __________________ Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

April 10, 2009, 09:56 PM	#46
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	I just ordered 2lbs of saltpeter off of ebay. Also Mykeal i was born in 1988.