Need an Answer

KEYBEAR · June 10, 2018, 04:19 PM

A friend showed up at my home this afternoon with a problem . He just started reloading ( 44 Mag ) and had this first box of reloads . The first six he put in the cylinder did not fire . The primers had a very lite hit I tried one in an old Ruger and it fired but the primer was not hit very hard .

His Revolver a used New Model Ruger Super Blackhawk was bought off Armslist . The seller told him the gun was as new with all new springs and trigger job . This made me think a lite Main spring but why my gun did not hit the primer as hard as I like .

I ask what primer Winchester large Pistol . Looking at a primer I removed from his loaded round it was Green in the center . My small Primers also Winchester are not Green . I think he was using Winchester Large Rifle Primers

My question is. Is the Winchester Rifle Primers CUP harder then Winchester large Pistol Primers . I do not remember anymore but think it is .

std7mag · June 10, 2018, 05:44 PM

Simple answer...
Yes..

Large rifle and large pistol primers are different. The cup on the rifle primer should be thicker to help withstand the higher pressures that most rifle cartridges deal with.

mehavey · June 10, 2018, 06:06 PM

If he put a rifle rifle primer in the pistol, it would not seat flush with the case head -- immediately obvious as the cylinder might not even close.

OP: I'd prime some your own cases w/ pistol primers (empty) and see if they fire.
(Note, the primers will back out -- don't woryy about i)

KEYBEAR · June 10, 2018, 07:15 PM

mehavey

This guy is a friend he bought 100 new Starline cases . The Primers were ok and did not look or feel high . But his gun or mine did not put much of a dent in the primer . I just put new springs in my Three Screw and it set it off but not the dent I thought it should . The good was we pulled the rest of the bullets (14) and I deprimed them . He only bought 100 primers to try and thought he had Pistol primers but did not look at the box . lesson learned

Chainsaw. · June 10, 2018, 07:55 PM

Oil the gun. Try again.

Brian Pfleuger · June 10, 2018, 08:00 PM

The difference in primers may or may not create a dimensional problem. I'm not sure I've ever seen a chart of Winchester primer dimensions, but for CCI, there is an overlap of allowable dimensions between rifle and pistol primers.

The shortest allowable LR would actually be .002 shorter than tallest LP, while the tallest LR would be .015 taller than the shortest allowable LP.

That, combined with the tolerance in the primer pocket depth (0.117-0.123 for LP) makes visual or interference verification pretty impossible.

However, from what I've seen... it is highly likely that the cup of a LR primer is 0.005-0.008 thicker than a LP primer.... so the shallow indent and lack of ignition implies that the wrong primer is likely the cause.

KEYBEAR · June 10, 2018, 08:14 PM

He will not be loading anymore Rifle Primers for his Revolvers . I have used Winchester Primers for over 50 years (dam did I post that) yes I am an old fart . I like the Winchester Primer I use them in all my loading and have zero problems . I think last year I used over two or three 5000 Primer cases in my Revolver .

Mobuck · June 11, 2018, 04:32 AM

If this "friend" inadvertently or intentionally substituted large rifle primers for large pistol primers, I would NOT shoot any of his reloads (or even stand close when he shoots them).

J.G. Terry · June 11, 2018, 06:41 AM

I would suggest if the problem persist to look at the main spring. Too light a hammer fall could cause misfires. That, with rifle primers would do it.

KEYBEAR · June 11, 2018, 07:39 AM

J.G. Terry
Yes I think most know that and it was a mistake one he will not make again soon .
I have some Revolvers that have lite main springs and I do use a primer that I know will work . (most of the time)

T. O'Heir · June 11, 2018, 12:21 PM

Rifle primers are not so hard that they require a rifle to set 'em off. Difference between a large rifle and pistol primer is the depth of the pocket and the minimum diameter is .0005" larger with the large rifle. So it should not fit in a .44 Mag primer pocket. Andit'll be high if you can get one in.
https://ballistictools.com/articles/...d-diameter.php
Something isn't right with the revolver. I'd almost bet the 'new' springs are the cause. Especially as it went bang in the other revolver(a primer doesn't need to be hit "very hard" to work. It just needs to work, reliably.) A Ruger factory hammer spring runs 23 pounds according to Wolff Springs. Wolff sells 'em down to 15 pounds.
If your buddy sends the thing to Ruger for service, they automatically replace any non-factory parts. Means the trigger job will be voided though.

KEYBEAR · June 11, 2018, 01:04 PM

T. O'Heir
I do not have a trigger pull gage and my friends Ruger felt lite . I put a Stock Ruger Spring in the friends gun yesterday and yes 23 # it hits hard . This guy is ok but we had THE TALK and the importance of knowing what you are using before you start . We all make mistakes he did and now he knows it .

June 10, 2018, 04:19 PM	#1
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	Need an Answer A friend showed up at my home this afternoon with a problem . He just started reloading ( 44 Mag ) and had this first box of reloads . The first six he put in the cylinder did not fire . The primers had a very lite hit I tried one in an old Ruger and it fired but the primer was not hit very hard . His Revolver a used New Model Ruger Super Blackhawk was bought off Armslist . The seller told him the gun was as new with all new springs and trigger job . This made me think a lite Main spring but why my gun did not hit the primer as hard as I like . I ask what primer Winchester large Pistol . Looking at a primer I removed from his loaded round it was Green in the center . My small Primers also Winchester are not Green . I think he was using Winchester Large Rifle Primers My question is. Is the Winchester Rifle Primers CUP harder then Winchester large Pistol Primers . I do not remember anymore but think it is .

June 10, 2018, 05:44 PM	#2
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Simple answer... Yes.. Large rifle and large pistol primers are different. The cup on the rifle primer should be thicker to help withstand the higher pressures that most rifle cartridges deal with. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

June 10, 2018, 07:55 PM	#5
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Oil the gun. Try again. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

June 10, 2018, 08:00 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The difference in primers may or may not create a dimensional problem. I'm not sure I've ever seen a chart of Winchester primer dimensions, but for CCI, there is an overlap of allowable dimensions between rifle and pistol primers. The shortest allowable LR would actually be .002 shorter than tallest LP, while the tallest LR would be .015 taller than the shortest allowable LP. That, combined with the tolerance in the primer pocket depth (0.117-0.123 for LP) makes visual or interference verification pretty impossible. However, from what I've seen... it is highly likely that the cup of a LR primer is 0.005-0.008 thicker than a LP primer.... so the shallow indent and lack of ignition implies that the wrong primer is likely the cause. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 11, 2018, 06:41 AM	#9
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	Springs? I would suggest if the problem persist to look at the main spring. Too light a hammer fall could cause misfires. That, with rifle primers would do it.

June 10, 2018, 06:06 PM	#3
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	If he put a rifle rifle primer in the pistol, it would not seat flush with the case head -- immediately obvious as the cylinder might not even close. OP: I'd prime some your own cases w/ pistol primers (empty) and see if they fire. (Note, the primers will back out -- don't woryy about i)

June 10, 2018, 07:15 PM	#4
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	mehavey This guy is a friend he bought 100 new Starline cases . The Primers were ok and did not look or feel high . But his gun or mine did not put much of a dent in the primer . I just put new springs in my Three Screw and it set it off but not the dent I thought it should . The good was we pulled the rest of the bullets (14) and I deprimed them . He only bought 100 primers to try and thought he had Pistol primers but did not look at the box . lesson learned

June 10, 2018, 08:14 PM	#7
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	He will not be loading anymore Rifle Primers for his Revolvers . I have used Winchester Primers for over 50 years (dam did I post that) yes I am an old fart . I like the Winchester Primer I use them in all my loading and have zero problems . I think last year I used over two or three 5000 Primer cases in my Revolver .

June 11, 2018, 04:32 AM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	If this "friend" inadvertently or intentionally substituted large rifle primers for large pistol primers, I would NOT shoot any of his reloads (or even stand close when he shoots them).

June 11, 2018, 07:39 AM	#10
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	J.G. Terry Yes I think most know that and it was a mistake one he will not make again soon . I have some Revolvers that have lite main springs and I do use a primer that I know will work . (most of the time)

June 11, 2018, 12:21 PM	#11
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Rifle primers are not so hard that they require a rifle to set 'em off. Difference between a large rifle and pistol primer is the depth of the pocket and the minimum diameter is .0005" larger with the large rifle. So it should not fit in a .44 Mag primer pocket. Andit'll be high if you can get one in. https://ballistictools.com/articles/...d-diameter.php Something isn't right with the revolver. I'd almost bet the 'new' springs are the cause. Especially as it went bang in the other revolver(a primer doesn't need to be hit "very hard" to work. It just needs to work, reliably.) A Ruger factory hammer spring runs 23 pounds according to Wolff Springs. Wolff sells 'em down to 15 pounds. If your buddy sends the thing to Ruger for service, they automatically replace any non-factory parts. Means the trigger job will be voided though. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 11, 2018, 01:04 PM	#12
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	T. O'Heir I do not have a trigger pull gage and my friends Ruger felt lite . I put a Stock Ruger Spring in the friends gun yesterday and yes 23 # it hits hard . This guy is ok but we had THE TALK and the importance of knowing what you are using before you start . We all make mistakes he did and now he knows it .