Military Brass

ninosdemente · June 13, 2018, 10:03 PM

When I go to range I pick up brass like most people. As I try to separate I came across a couple LC 15, 16, 17. Is this Lake City with year of manufactured?

Also came across PSD 15 and FC .223.

Are these considered military brass and what caliber are they besides the one that does states .223.

Do you load these or just avoid them? Reason for asking is contemplating whether to keep or throw out.

ninosdemente · June 13, 2018, 10:07 PM

I found online that if if has a circle with cross as part of the headstamp, it means its NATO so most likely its 5.56, right? So I guess it means that it is obsolete to me then as planning on loading .223.

lamarw · June 14, 2018, 09:05 AM

The Lake City (LC) military brass is rather desirable. The only difficulty with reloading it is "once fired brass" will still have the primer crimp. The primer crimp will have to be removed in order to push in a new primer. It is not a problem if you have the necessary tools on your reloading bench to swage out the crimp . I use a Dillon Super Swage 600 which makes quick and simple work of it. There are other tools. It can be reamed out, but this is time consuming and hard on your hands when you start talking about bulk brass.

If the brass you are picking up has been reloaded previously, then no problem.

MTT TL · June 14, 2018, 02:03 PM

Those are the years.

If the brass is rated for 223 than it is 223 loadings only. If it is 556 it is good for either. I understand there is little difference between the two but that is the better safe than sorry rule.

Military brass is very good. I wonder what current stock headstamps are doing on a civilian range but I can think of a few legal reasons.

lamarw · June 14, 2018, 04:58 PM

Lake City brass is readily available at places such as Everglades. The OP does not mention whether it has been swaged or not.

I think I have seen older military ammunition for sale but I could be wrong. (Probably past a certain expiration date or such). I have a couple of thousand rounds of Lake City 556 brass I have reloaded. I don't shoot at commercial ranges. I shoot in my back yard and try not to leave any behind.

You are right, it is good brass once you have it swaged.

There is also military bullets that have been pulled and for sale.

**Mike Irwin** · June 15, 2018, 09:19 AM

The "cross in a circle" means that it was manufactured to NATO standard and is acceptable for us by the alliance.

Most likely it's overrun from a military contract.

PSD is a headstamp used by a South Korean manufacturer. Supposed to be decent brass, and should be berdan primed.

FC is Federal Cartridge.

ninosdemente · June 16, 2018, 04:17 PM

I do have a .223 bolt action rifle which I won't be able to use that rifle. My brother does have an AR that will take either one, maybe he might be interested in them.

I had previously picked up the same brass a couple of trips ago. Unfortunately I did not look them up and threw them away. I know, bad me.

I don't know if it has been swaged or not. But I will post a picture on one. I rather the picture answer the question that I take a guess.

ninosdemente · June 16, 2018, 04:18 PM

Is Federal Cartridge considered military as well?

lamarw · June 16, 2018, 04:59 PM

You will quickly find out if it has been swaged or not when you attempt to deprime or prime the brass. The one you place here in a picture may or may not of been swaged, and the others could or could not have been swaged or reamed out. We can easily tell with a good picture. A group picture which has both will allow us to point out the difference.

You might be able to see for yourself if you lay a primer up next to the head of the brass. The crimp is an extra strand of brass in the brass primer hole.

If you have just a few, it is not worth paying over a hundred bucks for a swag tool. You can use a Dremel or an old knife to ream the crimp out, but it is time consuming and wears on your hands when you are talking about hundreds of pieces of brass.

thallub · June 17, 2018, 06:43 AM

i have access to large quantities of free once fired LC military brass and use it exclusively in all my rifles. My preparation:

1. Full length re-size and deprime

2. Remove crimp

3. Trim

4. Inside chamfer case necks

5. Uniform primer pockets.

6. Tumble

**Mike Irwin** · June 17, 2018, 07:29 AM

"Is Federal Cartridge considered military as well? "

That particular headstamp, no.

It has the civilian cartridge designation .223 on the headstamp, which means that it was produced for the civilian market.

Ifishsum · June 17, 2018, 09:55 PM

LC is very good brass - although it's more work I generally only pick up those that still have an intact primer crimp, so I know for sure it's only once fired. Federal (ATK) is currently operating the Lake City ammo plant so lots of Federal marketed ammo (American Eagle especially) is loaded in LC brass. I have also seen plenty of FC .223 civilian marked brass with crimped primers so you pretty well have to look and see. My only complaint with FC .223 brass is that it's often shorter than usual which can make it hard to trim to a consistent length with some trimming systems. Otherwise I have loaded it without issue but it does have a reputation for loose primer pockets after just a couple of loadings when loaded hot.

PSD as I understand it is mil-contract made by PMC (S. Korea). I have had good luck with both and consider them interchangeable although it seems common with both to have slightly off-center flash holes. The PSD will have primer crimps to remove before reloading.

I don't believe there is a difference in the brass as far as being rated for .223 or 5.56 but it's pretty much a moot point I think, as it's not common to find 5.56 loading data and no real reason to load it anyway. Case dimensions are the same.

ninosdemente · June 17, 2018, 10:54 PM

I did throw away the PSD and some other ones as well. They were not much. But these LC I found quite a bit of them.

Here are the pictures as promised. Hope this helps.

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/25.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/26.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/27.jpg

**Mike Irwin** · June 18, 2018, 07:33 AM

What the frick are all of the extra dot indentations on the case heads?

I've never seen that before... Is it part of the manufacturing process?

Ricklin · June 18, 2018, 08:26 AM

I'll second that question Mike, what the heck? I too have not seen that before.

Nathan · June 18, 2018, 09:17 AM

223 and 5.56 brass are the same.

**Mike Irwin** · June 18, 2018, 09:26 AM

"223 and 5.56 brass are the same."

No, not really.

Structurally, maybe.

Metallurgically, probably very similar, but may be a bit different depending on who's ordering the brass stock and what company is supplying it.

Physically, though, all military 5.56 brass has crimped in primers.

Not all civilian .223 brass has crimped in primers. My guess is that most doesn't, and the stuff that does is most often overruns from military line production.

bamaranger · June 18, 2018, 01:05 PM

Dots are ..........dots. I dunno what they are for, but I recently came into several hundred FC cases (brass) so marked as well.

I worked them up "thallup" described, loaded them for my Savage Hog rifle with no complaints.

They all came off of a PD/Security range, once fired.

T. O'Heir · June 20, 2018, 01:54 PM

"...Is Federal Cartridge considered military..." Isn't military if it has .223 on the head stamp. Federal does operate Lake City for the government, but not everything Federal makes is milsurp.
.223 and 5.56 brass are the same size. The only difference is the crimped primer on the milsurp.
"...rated for .223 than it is .223 loadings only..." Nonsense.

Chainsaw. · June 20, 2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

What the frick are all of the extra dot indentations on the case heads?

I've never seen that before... Is it part of the manufacturing process?

You dont mean the three "dots" military crimps do you? Right around the primer?

**Mike Irwin** · June 21, 2018, 07:14 AM

"You dont mean the three "dots" military crimps do you? Right around the primer?"

No, I don't mean the primer staking. And these cases in the attached photos seem to have ring crimps, not stakes.

I'm talking about the varying sized dots around the head of the case in the same field as the headstamp.

ninosdemente · June 26, 2018, 06:26 PM

Is this considered military brass:

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/28.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/29.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/30.jpg

If read correctly, response #11, this would not be considered military correct?

ninosdemente · June 26, 2018, 06:37 PM

Would this be considered non military as well:

Is this Field and Stream?
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/31.jpg

I found about 15 of these:
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/32.jpg

I deprimed these:
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/33.jpg

That inner ring would be removed with what is mentioned on post#3?

thallub · June 27, 2018, 08:56 AM

i don't consider any of those cases military brass. There is no NATO symbol.

ninosdemente · June 27, 2018, 06:11 PM

Got it, thanks.

How can "Military Grade" be interpreted then? As it's mentioned on the box.

June 14, 2018, 02:03 PM	#4
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Those are the years. If the brass is rated for 223 than it is 223 loadings only. If it is 556 it is good for either. I understand there is little difference between the two but that is the better safe than sorry rule. Military brass is very good. I wonder what current stock headstamps are doing on a civilian range but I can think of a few legal reasons. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

June 15, 2018, 09:19 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The "cross in a circle" means that it was manufactured to NATO standard and is acceptable for us by the alliance. Most likely it's overrun from a military contract. PSD is a headstamp used by a South Korean manufacturer. Supposed to be decent brass, and should be berdan primed. FC is Federal Cartridge. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 18, 2018, 07:33 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	What the frick are all of the extra dot indentations on the case heads? I've never seen that before... Is it part of the manufacturing process? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 18, 2018, 08:26 AM	#15
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	??? I'll second that question Mike, what the heck? I too have not seen that before. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

June 18, 2018, 09:26 AM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"223 and 5.56 brass are the same." No, not really. Structurally, maybe. Metallurgically, probably very similar, but may be a bit different depending on who's ordering the brass stock and what company is supplying it. Physically, though, all military 5.56 brass has crimped in primers. Not all civilian .223 brass has crimped in primers. My guess is that most doesn't, and the stuff that does is most often overruns from military line production. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 13, 2018, 10:03 PM	#1
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Military Brass When I go to range I pick up brass like most people. As I try to separate I came across a couple LC 15, 16, 17. Is this Lake City with year of manufactured? Also came across PSD 15 and FC .223. Are these considered military brass and what caliber are they besides the one that does states .223. Do you load these or just avoid them? Reason for asking is contemplating whether to keep or throw out.

June 13, 2018, 10:07 PM	#2
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I found online that if if has a circle with cross as part of the headstamp, it means its NATO so most likely its 5.56, right? So I guess it means that it is obsolete to me then as planning on loading .223.

June 14, 2018, 09:05 AM	#3
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	The Lake City (LC) military brass is rather desirable. The only difficulty with reloading it is "once fired brass" will still have the primer crimp. The primer crimp will have to be removed in order to push in a new primer. It is not a problem if you have the necessary tools on your reloading bench to swage out the crimp . I use a Dillon Super Swage 600 which makes quick and simple work of it. There are other tools. It can be reamed out, but this is time consuming and hard on your hands when you start talking about bulk brass. If the brass you are picking up has been reloaded previously, then no problem.

June 14, 2018, 04:58 PM	#5
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Lake City brass is readily available at places such as Everglades. The OP does not mention whether it has been swaged or not. I think I have seen older military ammunition for sale but I could be wrong. (Probably past a certain expiration date or such). I have a couple of thousand rounds of Lake City 556 brass I have reloaded. I don't shoot at commercial ranges. I shoot in my back yard and try not to leave any behind. You are right, it is good brass once you have it swaged. There is also military bullets that have been pulled and for sale.

June 16, 2018, 04:17 PM	#7
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I do have a .223 bolt action rifle which I won't be able to use that rifle. My brother does have an AR that will take either one, maybe he might be interested in them. I had previously picked up the same brass a couple of trips ago. Unfortunately I did not look them up and threw them away. I know, bad me. I don't know if it has been swaged or not. But I will post a picture on one. I rather the picture answer the question that I take a guess.

June 16, 2018, 04:18 PM	#8
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Is Federal Cartridge considered military as well?

June 16, 2018, 04:59 PM	#9
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	You will quickly find out if it has been swaged or not when you attempt to deprime or prime the brass. The one you place here in a picture may or may not of been swaged, and the others could or could not have been swaged or reamed out. We can easily tell with a good picture. A group picture which has both will allow us to point out the difference. You might be able to see for yourself if you lay a primer up next to the head of the brass. The crimp is an extra strand of brass in the brass primer hole. If you have just a few, it is not worth paying over a hundred bucks for a swag tool. You can use a Dremel or an old knife to ream the crimp out, but it is time consuming and wears on your hands when you are talking about hundreds of pieces of brass.

June 17, 2018, 06:43 AM	#10
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	i have access to large quantities of free once fired LC military brass and use it exclusively in all my rifles. My preparation: 1. Full length re-size and deprime 2. Remove crimp 3. Trim 4. Inside chamfer case necks 5. Uniform primer pockets. 6. Tumble

June 17, 2018, 07:29 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Is Federal Cartridge considered military as well? " That particular headstamp, no. It has the civilian cartridge designation .223 on the headstamp, which means that it was produced for the civilian market. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 17, 2018, 09:55 PM	#12
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	LC is very good brass - although it's more work I generally only pick up those that still have an intact primer crimp, so I know for sure it's only once fired. Federal (ATK) is currently operating the Lake City ammo plant so lots of Federal marketed ammo (American Eagle especially) is loaded in LC brass. I have also seen plenty of FC .223 civilian marked brass with crimped primers so you pretty well have to look and see. My only complaint with FC .223 brass is that it's often shorter than usual which can make it hard to trim to a consistent length with some trimming systems. Otherwise I have loaded it without issue but it does have a reputation for loose primer pockets after just a couple of loadings when loaded hot. PSD as I understand it is mil-contract made by PMC (S. Korea). I have had good luck with both and consider them interchangeable although it seems common with both to have slightly off-center flash holes. The PSD will have primer crimps to remove before reloading. I don't believe there is a difference in the brass as far as being rated for .223 or 5.56 but it's pretty much a moot point I think, as it's not common to find 5.56 loading data and no real reason to load it anyway. Case dimensions are the same.

June 17, 2018, 10:54 PM	#13
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I did throw away the PSD and some other ones as well. They were not much. But these LC I found quite a bit of them. Here are the pictures as promised. Hope this helps. http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/25.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/26.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/27.jpg

June 18, 2018, 09:17 AM	#16
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	223 and 5.56 brass are the same.

June 18, 2018, 01:05 PM	#18
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	dots Dots are ..........dots. I dunno what they are for, but I recently came into several hundred FC cases (brass) so marked as well. I worked them up "thallup" described, loaded them for my Savage Hog rifle with no complaints. They all came off of a PD/Security range, once fired.

June 20, 2018, 01:54 PM	#19
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Is Federal Cartridge considered military..." Isn't military if it has .223 on the head stamp. Federal does operate Lake City for the government, but not everything Federal makes is milsurp. .223 and 5.56 brass are the same size. The only difference is the crimped primer on the milsurp. "...rated for .223 than it is .223 loadings only..." Nonsense. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 21, 2018, 07:14 AM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"You dont mean the three "dots" military crimps do you? Right around the primer?" No, I don't mean the primer staking. And these cases in the attached photos seem to have ring crimps, not stakes. I'm talking about the varying sized dots around the head of the case in the same field as the headstamp. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 26, 2018, 06:26 PM	#22
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Is this considered military brass: http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/28.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/29.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/30.jpg If read correctly, response #11, this would not be considered military correct?

June 26, 2018, 06:37 PM	#23
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Would this be considered non military as well: Is this Field and Stream? http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/31.jpg I found about 15 of these: http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/32.jpg I deprimed these: http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/33.jpg That inner ring would be removed with what is mentioned on post#3?

June 27, 2018, 08:56 AM	#24
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	i don't consider any of those cases military brass. There is no NATO symbol.

June 27, 2018, 06:11 PM	#25
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Got it, thanks. How can "Military Grade" be interpreted then? As it's mentioned on the box.