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March 12, 2014, 12:51 AM | #1 | ||
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Join Date: February 4, 2012
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Carrying a Firearm in a School Zone off school property
OK, folks, I have been presented with a conundrum, and am hoping you guys can either explain it or otherwise shed light.
One of my local retaiers (Rural King) has begun selling firearms. It is also within 1000 ft of the local high school. I have entered there, browsing their selection, and chit chatting with the man behind the gun counter. He saw that I was open carrying, and stated that doing so was against Federal Law, according to the BATFE guys who helped them set up their license. He informed me that they have to secure any purchased firearm in a locked container and walk the customer to their car. I asked him if he was sure it was Federal law and not a BATFE regulation, and he reiterated it was Federal law. Now, when I read the US Code, I see the following: Quote:
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I have two questions: 1) Are there other Federal laws that might apply here? I'm not worried about State law, since Indiana's school zone does not go off school property. 2) Are the BATFE regulations that might limit the store's ability to allow firearms carry with it being within the school zone? |
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March 12, 2014, 01:38 AM | #2 |
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You found the Federal GFSZ law. Essentially nothing to do with BATF.
It means what it says - if you have a license from the same state as the school zone in question, you are exempt from the restriction. Without a license, must transport handguns and long guns unloaded locked in a case or a gun rack. The Federal law does not account for places where a license is not required for some form of carry. And GFSZ does not apply on private property that happen to be in that 1000' school zone. California has its own version of GFSZ; I happen to live inside a GFSZ.
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March 12, 2014, 03:58 AM | #3 | |||
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March 12, 2014, 04:37 AM | #4 | |
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(q)(2) is not aimed at FFLs.
The behavior you describe Quote:
You don't mention your state, but I can tell it isn't California (for which you should thank your lucky stars). Here, it is effectively impossible to to open an FFL within 1000 feet of a school. But if one were to exist, locked-case transport would be required to bring firearms to and from that FFL.
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Last edited by Librarian; March 12, 2014 at 04:42 AM. |
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March 12, 2014, 05:01 AM | #5 | ||||
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Quote:
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The supposed "ban" on carrying in the store is what I am really trying to get answers about. I don't think I was clear. Quote:
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March 12, 2014, 10:36 AM | #6 |
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My understanding is that the federal law is never enforced except as an added charge to other offenses.
Because it's pretty ridiculous on its face, anyone transporting a firearm through a state they are not a resident of is bound to pass within 1,000' of school property at some point. So unless you're also running drugs or trafficking humans or committing some other crime you won't be charged with that. |
March 12, 2014, 12:52 PM | #7 |
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Location: Gardnerville, NV
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^^that makes a little bit more sense. The 'main street' in the town I live in is HWY395 if I buy a gun a Carson City (where I picked up my last one). Just by driving home on 395 through town I pass through 2 school zones!!
My how the world has changed, seems like fear runs everyone's lives. I remember, growing up in Montana, during hunting season most all the trucks in the High School parking lot had rifles in the back windows. When we moved to NV it was different, everyone in High School had shotguns in their vehicles during duck season. I remember a guy showing up to home room, then ditching the next period; 'where did you go?' I asked. 'Dude, I forgot I had a goose in my backseat of my truck from early this morning, I had to get it home!' |
March 13, 2014, 08:59 AM | #8 | |
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Location: Arkansas
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The school zone laws are a genuine infringement, IMHO. In many/most rural areas every pick up truck waiting in line to pick up a child after school has a gun inside. This is a major issue for me as I am a reenactor and used to speak in schools carrying a Rev. period flintlock rifle. That is now illegal and I cannot do it anymore. |
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March 13, 2014, 09:54 AM | #9 | |
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This would appear to cover the reenactment scenario if approved by the school. |
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March 13, 2014, 10:18 AM | #10 |
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it was in the news a few months ago that the feds (not sure which dept.) set up sting shops next to schools in order to entrap people for carrying in school zones. They mentioned city officials originally declined the opening of the businesses due to the school zoning/gun laws but the feds showed their badges to get a pass on opening the shops.
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March 13, 2014, 08:00 PM | #11 | ||
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March 13, 2014, 10:45 PM | #12 | |
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March 14, 2014, 12:50 AM | #13 |
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Man, I LIVE in a school zone!
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March 14, 2014, 09:59 AM | #14 | |
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Join Date: December 11, 2012
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I googled but did not find anything, that being said, google has tripped me up more than a few times by not using terms I use when searching stuff... |
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March 14, 2014, 11:17 AM | #15 | ||
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I'm going to put the text of the meat of the statute, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)through (4): Quote:
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March 14, 2014, 11:33 AM | #16 |
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@KyJim, so what is meant by licensed? Is that an FFL or love's to carry a handgun?
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March 14, 2014, 11:55 AM | #17 |
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As I read it, the statute means a license broader than an FFL; it would include a license to purchase a firearm issued by a governmental unit or an CCL provided the governmental unit "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."
I did a quick search and found one published case of interest on this point, U.S. v. Tait, 202 F.3d 1320 (11th Cir. 2000) in which the court said that Alabama's licensing system for concealed carry met this requirement even though the sheriff did not do criminal background checks and Alabama law (at that time) said a sheriff could issue a license "if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol, and that he is a suitable person to be so licensed." The Tait case is available publicly at http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait with the pertinent portion beginning at paragraph 17. I'll also remind those viewing this message the Tait case is only the law in the 11th Circuit. |
March 14, 2014, 12:32 PM | #18 |
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In GFSZA, "licensed" means having a concealed carry permit.
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SAF, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us My AmazonSmile benefits SAF I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12. 2020: It's pronounced twenty twenty. |
March 14, 2014, 12:53 PM | #19 | |
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March 14, 2014, 11:17 PM | #20 |
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@KyJim- After posting, I had a brain storm, and realized it HAS to be a CCP/LTCH.
The FEDERAL Firearms Licenses are not issed by the STATES. I feel like an idiot... |
March 30, 2014, 02:06 PM | #21 |
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I have a couple question that could use some clarification for me.
1). By "licence" are they referring to a Permit to carry? I walk a few miles a day on a city owned trail. One section of this trail goes right behind the High School. Yes, there is a fence between the trail and the School. As A Permit to Carry holder, can I legally carry in this trail? 2). If living with the 1000 foot zone, is it illegal to take a firearm zipped up in an approved rifle case and carry it from your house to your car if the car is parked on a city street, or would the case have to have some type of lock? |
March 30, 2014, 03:07 PM | #22 | |
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As I think you are catching on, the federal GFSZ law has an exception for people who hold a carry license from the state in which the school is located.. So, assuming that you hold a carry license and are in your home state, you can carry on your way to and from the store, and the store does NOT have to escort you to your vehicle or put your latest toy in a plain brown wrapper to carry out. |
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March 30, 2014, 04:50 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
There may be other local ordinances that affect you (carry restrictions in city parks/trails sometimes exist), but as far as the federal level goes, your permit exempts you from the GFSZA. See http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/usa.pdf page 10
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SAF, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us My AmazonSmile benefits SAF I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12. 2020: It's pronounced twenty twenty. |
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March 30, 2014, 07:52 PM | #24 | |
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BATFE GFSZ stings -- not a rumor.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/batfe...gue-operations Quote:
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March 30, 2014, 11:49 PM | #25 |
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I seems that yall are coming around to the right answers.
1. A firearms dealer DOES NOT have to accompany you to your car when you purchase a firearm. That is FUD. 2. If you DO NOT have a firearms carry permit, then your purchase MUST be in a locked container while on public property. So if you put your purchase in a locked container, unloaded, it doesn't matter if there is a school zone outside the door. 3. For general purposes, a trunk is a locked container, but sometimes there is an issue getting from private property to you vehicle when in a school zone. 4. If you have a firearms carry permit or license, you are exempt from the federal law. The federal law does not specify whether that is a permit for open or concealed carry, so both are allowed. 5. CAVEAT: STATE law varies as to whether your CCW is valid ON School property. Some states, all handguns are banned irrespective of licensure, others allow it. And some states allow you to carry (with a license) if you have permission from the appropriate school officials. The federal law does not address the issue. EXAMPLE A: A California CCW permit allows concealed carry on school campuses. However, some sheriffs or city police chiefs (legally) impose conditions on the license banning school carry. EXAMPLE B: If I read the news correctly, Indiana recently passed a clarification to their law allowing carry with a license in school parking lots, but the license is still invalid for carry anywhere else on a school campus. So you can pick up the kids without locking up your gun, but you cannot attend the PTA or p[aren't/teacher meeting while armed. |
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