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Old May 3, 2013, 08:02 PM   #26
JimDandy
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He didn't know it was in the trunk. He forgot it was there, and didn't find it until he was removing his school books.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:10 PM   #27
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Didn't know and forgetting are two totally different things.

He knew it was in the trunk because he used it to shoot skeet.

He went to ask permission to take the gun home. It was not loaded according to the article.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:18 PM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
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Having known at one time that the gun was in the trunk is not the question.

The statute says "knowingly and willfully did COMMIT".

If he forgot the gun was there, he did not KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY commit the CRIME.

Even if you argue "knowing", he clearly did not do it "willfully".
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:19 PM   #29
JimDandy
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He went to use the phone to ask his mom to come pick it up. Someone overheard his phone call.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:35 PM   #30
Plumbnut
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Forgetting is not a defense. If you put the gun in the trunk then you knew it was there. If you got in the car and drove it to school then you willfully took the gun to school.

It can be twisted like the Holy Bible but ultimately he was arrested and the D.A. will apply the law like they want. Even if he is found innocent he still learned a lesson.

But then again I have told you that before.

The article says "He asked school officials if he could leave and take the gun home" Read it......

Last edited by Plumbnut; May 6, 2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: used wrong words for my intention.
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Old May 4, 2013, 04:02 AM   #31
ClydeFrog
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I think the kid should call...

VP Biden!

No really, the whole event seems like a raw deal for the teen.

It's a bit off topic but years ago(late 1990s) my older cousin was sent a nasty letter filled with threats by his daughter's school. The admin staff informed him in writing he could face arrest for not having his daughter in school.
My cousin informed the school's principal & staff that the proper medical records & excuses were filed. The school staff made an error with the records.

I told my cousin, if it were me, Id go straight to the local media, the super-intendant & the school board. I'd calmly explain that if they ever threaten me again then make mistakes, Id file a civil lawsuit.

CF
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:51 AM   #32
L2R
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All people make mistakes or are liars

We all make mistakes.

He found his and tried to fix it.
Most would have sweated it out until the end of the day.

Is he guilty? yes, its the law.
Should he be punished? yes. It is important to remember where you put your guns.

Should he be tagged with a felony for life? definitely not.

Zero tolerance is in place for a lot of reasons but in part so as not to allow for favoritism.

It is a perfect example that zero tolerance laws need an option when it makes sense to a judge.
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Old May 6, 2013, 10:29 AM   #33
maestro pistolero
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The clause that exempts those who did not knowingly and willingly break the law is clearly meant to apply to situations such as this. In fact, few other sets of facts exist to which could it possibly could have been meant to apply. 'Knowingly and willingly' is a very specific, intentional, deliberate mindset outside of which this law carries no weight.

Plumnut, you are clearly blinded by your anti-gun bias. Your hang 'em high attitude toward this otherwise exemplary young man is disgusting.

You would ruin this young man's life over a simple, honest mistake that, once discovered, he immediately attempted to correct. Even worse, by allowing this kid to become a felon, you would brand him for life and deprive society of his every future contribution.

Last edited by Al Norris; May 6, 2013 at 08:29 PM. Reason: removed offending ad-hominem
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Old May 6, 2013, 11:18 AM   #34
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I have deleted a post. Why?

I have a rather strange view here. If a poster says controversial things, in a manner that may seem offensive - and then says he or she is done with the thread, the poster should keep his or her word and truly be done.

If you don't like what was said in reply - then you shouldn't have sworn off the thread.

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his is my last post on the thread. Have a nice arguement without me.
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Old May 6, 2013, 11:34 AM   #35
Evan Thomas
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And another one... see Glenn's comments above, with which I agree.
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Old May 6, 2013, 03:16 PM   #36
Sweet Shooter
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I have two questions on this matter:

1. Why wouldn't the teen just get back in his car and drive away to correct his "mistake" privately? My opinion is that honor is lost on the dishonorable, I'd sooner have run home with stomach flu "squitters" than let someone control my freedom.

2. If the teen was not a concealed carry permit holder (not subject to gun-free zoning laws—at least here in UT) and the firearm was in fact locked away from his immediate use, surely the most that he can get prosecuted for is a trespass infraction?

I don't get it.

-SS-
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Old May 6, 2013, 08:36 PM   #37
Al Norris
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1. Skip out and drive home... It's what I would have done. What we don't know is if this was a closed campus. If so, that option was not available. Otherwise, it would require mind reading skills which none of us have (I think...).

2. State laws very. Apparently in NC, this is a felony crime.
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Old May 8, 2013, 09:05 PM   #38
KyJim
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I'm no expert on N.C. law. I didn't see where anyone linked to the statute but assume it did include the provision that it must be done knowingly and willfully as some members have posted.

The N.C. Court of Appeals has explained the difference between an act done knowingly and one done intentionally:
Quote:
A person knows of an activity if he is aware of a high probability of its existence. See Black's Law Dictionary (5th ed. 1979). A person acts intentionally if he desires to cause the consequences of his act or that he believes the consequences are substantially certain to result.
State v. Bright, 78 N.C. App. 239, 243, 337 S.E.2d 87, 89 (1985). Normally, we can infer knowledge and intent from the acts themselves. However, under the facts as reported, there is direct evidence he was not aware of the gun in the trunk when he drove onto school property. Thus, a good argument can be made that the student did not knowingly bring the gun onto the school property. This has nothing to do with being charged with knowledge of the law; the law requires knowledge of the facts.

In addition, the N.C. Court of Appeals has defined willfully:
Quote:
[t]he word willfully means something more than an intention to commit the offense. It implies committing the offense purposely and designedly in violation of law.”
State v. Sullivan, 201 N.C. App. 540, 548, 687 S.E.2d 504, 510 (2009) quoting a jury instruction with approval and citing State v. Stephenson, 218 N.C. 258, 264, 10 S.E.2d 819, 823 (1940).

Thus, the student must intend to commit not just the act, but to violate the law purposely. This does not fit the facts as we know them.

This is a situation where the prosecutor may very well decide not to prosecute. Whether there would still be a school code violation which would justify expulsion is another matter.

Added: How many of you have tried to go through airline security with something not allowed like a pen knife on a key fob or a small container of CS gas on a key ring? This happens many times a day in virtually every airport. People are not prosecuted for trying to bring contraband through the airline because there is no intent to violate the law.

Last edited by KyJim; May 9, 2013 at 09:53 AM.
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Old May 8, 2013, 09:37 PM   #39
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Reminds me of when I accidentally left a knife in my shorts pocket from fishing. I went to the principals office, and explained the situation, I never got in trouble before besides 1 detention because I skipped a class, and I played two varsity sports.

My principal took the knife, stuck it in his middle desk drawer, told me to come get it at the end of the day when I was leaving.

Technically according to the student rule book I should have been expelled, but clearly it was a slip of the mind, I fessed up, and he took care of me.

Not saying its exactly the same with a gun, but the prinicpal shouldn't have acted the way he did. The student was honest, it was a simple mistake, no one was in harm, they gun could have been easily removed, by one adult or another before lunch period and end of story.
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Old May 8, 2013, 09:53 PM   #40
teeroux
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I don't know NC law. Here in Louisiana the inside of your car is yours no matter where you park it. I don't know if a firearm completely enclosed in a vehicle would technically be on school property in NC.
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Old May 10, 2013, 12:16 PM   #41
ChuckS
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Truly a sad state of our society when an honest mistake by a student would trap him in a Catch 22.

Would he have been any better off as suggested above to approach the principal? I doubt it, based on their response.

He could have just kept quiet and left at the end of the day. Even if something ran afoul, would he be in any worse a position as he is in now?

He took the course he thought best, to get the offending object off campus ASAP. His mistake was being overheard by a staff member. Now what is he going to learn from this...certainly to never trust any of these authority figures. I suspect all the students will drop any trust they have, if it wasn't already lost.

All I see is a lose-lose situation here.
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Old May 10, 2013, 12:28 PM   #42
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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North Carolina is very strict on the "weapons on campus" laws. If I am not mistaken, there is a house bill up to allow CCW holders to leave their handgun locked in their car on campus. I don't recall the bill number. My wife works at one of the NC Universities, and she was telling me about some co-workers objecting to the proposed bill.
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