Found Rifle...Plugged Bore

Edward429451 · February 26, 2006, 12:20 PM

So my buddy finds an old Jap Arisaka in his rafters during a remodel, less stock.

The most I've found out about it is that it's a mdl 38 and in 6.5. No serial number but does have a #2 on the receiver. No evidence of the emporor's mark being ground off but it's not there either. The bolt handle is straight, not angled. No other marks except a "1" and a "12" on the barrel (or a 1-2?)

Can anyone tell me anything more about these rifles?

The bore is either plugged with many squibs or has been consciously plugged with....?? Any idea on how to unplug the bore. I thought about torching it out but don't want to risk affecting the bluing which is in fairly decent shape.

Any help appreciated.

Harley Quinn · February 26, 2006, 12:47 PM

You can purchase a brass rod that is very close to the bore size at a welding retail store.

Place the rod in the barrel and determine the least amount of distance and then try driving it out, mark the brass with a line and see when striking the brass rod how hard it is to move it.

You might want to put some teflon lubricant in the barrel and see if it will flow through the barrel first. if not put it into both ends. Get the super duper penetrating type. Not WD 40, no teflon in it...

Once it starts to move and the teflon is there it should not be that difficult.

Try to get the Brass rod as close to the barrel size so it will be some what supported but still slide in and out.

Use a small hammer and stroke it lightly You will want to hit the brass with a hammer that is steel. I would say a hammer not heavier then 8 ounces.
If the plug is say 3/4 of the way into the barrel you can pick up the brass and keeping it in the barrel throw it at the object and the weight of the brass will move it some times. The suddenness of the strike might just break it loose??? Couple of ideas.

You could set it in the hot sun for a while that might help, be surprised how warm it can get.

Some of the Japanese rifles were plugged early for entry into the US, or they were figured not to be of quality to shoot..
HQ

Edward429451 · February 27, 2006, 09:43 AM

Thanks Harley. I didn't have any luck last night. That thing is plugged about 6" into the barrel from both directions. (the barrel screwed right off). I can't imagine someone putting that many squibs down it and not noticing so I'm thinking they poured lead into it.

chadwimc · February 27, 2006, 09:45 AM

If it was in the attic for a while, I'll bet its plugged with wasp nests. Just use some hot water to see if the plug dissolves. Push 'em out with a cleaning rod.

Jim Watson · February 27, 2006, 10:21 AM

I would be wary of a major power's military rifle without serial numbers, mum crest, or arsenal mark. It MIGHT be a non-firing drill rifle, I know Japan and Italy made them.

Edward429451 · February 27, 2006, 10:57 AM

Hmmm, drill rifle eh? Maybe. The lockwork functions.

Serial number...I've 'heard' that Japan did serial number their rifles up until they knew we were coming, then dropped them in favor of increased production. We surmised that possibly the bolt handle not being turned down would support that speculation.

My buddy doesn't want to make it a shooter, just a wall hanger, if he can get a cheap stock for it. He just wants to be sure that it's not the lost Emporers rifle that the Smithsonian has been looking for

and is anxious to remove the plug.

I gotta go to the welding supply today for oxygen and will pick up a 3/16 brass rod.

If this is a drill rifle or otherwise deMil, is there any legal considerations to removing the plug?

James K · February 27, 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi, Edward,

How do you know it is a Type 38 if there are no markings on the receiver ring? You say you are sure the rifle is not a drill rifle because the action works, but Japanese training rifles, made for the equivalent of high school ROTC, did work and did fire blanks. There are several kinds of training rifles, but common features are receiver tangs made in one piece with the receiver, and a barrel that is made of straight tubing screwed into a cast bolster that forms the rear end of the barrel. Other signs are lack of locking lugs or very shallow lugs, LACK OF A CREST (or signs of its removal) and LACK OF A MODEL NUMBER, ARSENAL MARK, or SERIAL NUMBER. If (once you unplug the barrel) you may well find the barrel is smooth-bored.

Jim

Edward429451 · February 28, 2006, 01:09 AM

Well it looks like a mdl 38 in an old gun book and one guy said it was also.

I'm not sure its not a drill rifle, in fact my thought is that it may be because it the lockwork functions. I can see where it should function but have no capability to fire. Perhaps I was unclear and what I was thinking didn't make it through the keyboard.

It's happened before.

[B]<[but common features are receiver tangs made in one piece with the receiver,>/B]

Yep. Sure is. The rest of your description is accurate also cept I'm not sure about the locking lugs and the rifle's not here now for me to take a look. Now that you mention it, the rifling did look kinda shallow I thought, but it's awful dirty and if inspected closer...maybe it is a smooth bore! If it is then that'll pretty much cinch it as a drill rifle I think. I'll tell him to bring it back over tomorrow night for another look see.

So, if I'm reading you right, the firing versions had a tapered barrel, and the drill rifles had a straight barrel?

deadin · February 28, 2006, 07:44 PM

I agree with Jim that it sounds like you have a trainer. All didn't necessarily have smoothbore barrels. Some used rifled, but shot out real barrels. Many were capable of chambering and firing (once

) live ammo. The lack of serial numbers, arsenal markings and crest are almost a sure sign of a trainer.
BTW: None of the standard Japanese rifles had turned down bolt handles.

Dean

wolfdog45 · February 28, 2006, 08:47 PM

Every description about this gun makes me beleive it is a drill rifle. Everything on the Japanese drill rifle worked and the barrel was pretty much always smooth bores.

Toney · March 1, 2006, 11:15 AM

The mum is differnt on training rifles

James K · March 1, 2006, 01:23 PM

There was no "mum" on "rifles" made as training rifles as they were never used by the Emperor's servants (i.e., the Japanese armed forces). Some are marked with the Japanese characters for "Blank Ammunition Only", but none of mine has any receiver ring markings and only one has a serial number (V434) on the left rear side.

Some worn out or obsolete rifles were made into training rifles, but the "mum" was defaced or completely removed and the "Blank Ammunition Only" marking applied to prevent mistakes.

I once tried to have hardness tests run on a training rifle receiver and bolt, but the scale would not go low enough. As best we could determine, the bolt was about a RC 4 and the receiver a 5, somewhere between stale Swiss and Camembert. Definitely not for live ammo, though the barrels (except for converted real rifles) are so oversize for the 6.5 bullet that there may have been no danger. Training rifles were made only for the 6.5 blank, not for the 7.7.

Jim

Harry Bonar · March 25, 2006, 09:01 PM

Dear owner:
I believe I'd listen very closely to Jim Keenan! Very carefully!
Harry B.

Edward429451 · March 26, 2006, 10:47 AM

My buddy never has brought that rifle back over. I believe he lost some interest in it when I told him it was likely a drill rifle. ??

I passed on Jim's info about it and the hardness...It must be back in the rafters now!

I apppreciate Jims and you others input on this rifle, thanks.

February 26, 2006, 12:20 PM	#1
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Found Rifle...Plugged Bore So my buddy finds an old Jap Arisaka in his rafters during a remodel, less stock. The most I've found out about it is that it's a mdl 38 and in 6.5. No serial number but does have a #2 on the receiver. No evidence of the emporor's mark being ground off but it's not there either. The bolt handle is straight, not angled. No other marks except a "1" and a "12" on the barrel (or a 1-2?) Can anyone tell me anything more about these rifles? The bore is either plugged with many squibs or has been consciously plugged with....?? Any idea on how to unplug the bore. I thought about torching it out but don't want to risk affecting the bluing which is in fairly decent shape. Any help appreciated.

March 25, 2006, 09:01 PM	#13
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	Jap Rifle! Dear owner: I believe I'd listen very closely to Jim Keenan! Very carefully! Harry B.

February 26, 2006, 12:47 PM	#2
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Bore and squib. You can purchase a brass rod that is very close to the bore size at a welding retail store. Place the rod in the barrel and determine the least amount of distance and then try driving it out, mark the brass with a line and see when striking the brass rod how hard it is to move it. You might want to put some teflon lubricant in the barrel and see if it will flow through the barrel first. if not put it into both ends. Get the super duper penetrating type. Not WD 40, no teflon in it... Once it starts to move and the teflon is there it should not be that difficult. Try to get the Brass rod as close to the barrel size so it will be some what supported but still slide in and out. Use a small hammer and stroke it lightly You will want to hit the brass with a hammer that is steel. I would say a hammer not heavier then 8 ounces. If the plug is say 3/4 of the way into the barrel you can pick up the brass and keeping it in the barrel throw it at the object and the weight of the brass will move it some times. The suddenness of the strike might just break it loose??? Couple of ideas. You could set it in the hot sun for a while that might help, be surprised how warm it can get. Some of the Japanese rifles were plugged early for entry into the US, or they were figured not to be of quality to shoot.. HQ

February 27, 2006, 09:43 AM	#3
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Thanks Harley. I didn't have any luck last night. That thing is plugged about 6" into the barrel from both directions. (the barrel screwed right off). I can't imagine someone putting that many squibs down it and not noticing so I'm thinking they poured lead into it.

February 27, 2006, 09:45 AM	#4
chadwimc Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 155	If it was in the attic for a while, I'll bet its plugged with wasp nests. Just use some hot water to see if the plug dissolves. Push 'em out with a cleaning rod.

February 27, 2006, 10:21 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I would be wary of a major power's military rifle without serial numbers, mum crest, or arsenal mark. It MIGHT be a non-firing drill rifle, I know Japan and Italy made them.

February 27, 2006, 10:57 AM	#6
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Hmmm, drill rifle eh? Maybe. The lockwork functions. Serial number...I've 'heard' that Japan did serial number their rifles up until they knew we were coming, then dropped them in favor of increased production. We surmised that possibly the bolt handle not being turned down would support that speculation. My buddy doesn't want to make it a shooter, just a wall hanger, if he can get a cheap stock for it. He just wants to be sure that it's not the lost Emporers rifle that the Smithsonian has been looking for and is anxious to remove the plug. I gotta go to the welding supply today for oxygen and will pick up a 3/16 brass rod. If this is a drill rifle or otherwise deMil, is there any legal considerations to removing the plug?

February 27, 2006, 10:03 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Edward, How do you know it is a Type 38 if there are no markings on the receiver ring? You say you are sure the rifle is not a drill rifle because the action works, but Japanese training rifles, made for the equivalent of high school ROTC, did work and did fire blanks. There are several kinds of training rifles, but common features are receiver tangs made in one piece with the receiver, and a barrel that is made of straight tubing screwed into a cast bolster that forms the rear end of the barrel. Other signs are lack of locking lugs or very shallow lugs, LACK OF A CREST (or signs of its removal) and LACK OF A MODEL NUMBER, ARSENAL MARK, or SERIAL NUMBER. If (once you unplug the barrel) you may well find the barrel is smooth-bored. Jim

February 28, 2006, 01:09 AM	#8
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Well it looks like a mdl 38 in an old gun book and one guy said it was also. I'm not sure its not a drill rifle, in fact my thought is that it may be because it the lockwork functions. I can see where it should function but have no capability to fire. Perhaps I was unclear and what I was thinking didn't make it through the keyboard. It's happened before. [B]<[but common features are receiver tangs made in one piece with the receiver,>/B] Yep. Sure is. The rest of your description is accurate also cept I'm not sure about the locking lugs and the rifle's not here now for me to take a look. Now that you mention it, the rifling did look kinda shallow I thought, but it's awful dirty and if inspected closer...maybe it is a smooth bore! If it is then that'll pretty much cinch it as a drill rifle I think. I'll tell him to bring it back over tomorrow night for another look see. So, if I'm reading you right, the firing versions had a tapered barrel, and the drill rifles had a straight barrel?

February 28, 2006, 07:44 PM	#9
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	I agree with Jim that it sounds like you have a trainer. All didn't necessarily have smoothbore barrels. Some used rifled, but shot out real barrels. Many were capable of chambering and firing (once ) live ammo. The lack of serial numbers, arsenal markings and crest are almost a sure sign of a trainer. BTW: None of the standard Japanese rifles had turned down bolt handles. Dean

February 28, 2006, 08:47 PM	#10
wolfdog45 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 324	Every description about this gun makes me beleive it is a drill rifle. Everything on the Japanese drill rifle worked and the barrel was pretty much always smooth bores.

March 1, 2006, 11:15 AM	#11
Toney Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2005 Location: Stillwater Oklahoma Posts: 790	The mum is differnt on training rifles

March 1, 2006, 01:23 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There was no "mum" on "rifles" made as training rifles as they were never used by the Emperor's servants (i.e., the Japanese armed forces). Some are marked with the Japanese characters for "Blank Ammunition Only", but none of mine has any receiver ring markings and only one has a serial number (V434) on the left rear side. Some worn out or obsolete rifles were made into training rifles, but the "mum" was defaced or completely removed and the "Blank Ammunition Only" marking applied to prevent mistakes. I once tried to have hardness tests run on a training rifle receiver and bolt, but the scale would not go low enough. As best we could determine, the bolt was about a RC 4 and the receiver a 5, somewhere between stale Swiss and Camembert. Definitely not for live ammo, though the barrels (except for converted real rifles) are so oversize for the 6.5 bullet that there may have been no danger. Training rifles were made only for the 6.5 blank, not for the 7.7. Jim

March 26, 2006, 10:47 AM	#14
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	My buddy never has brought that rifle back over. I believe he lost some interest in it when I told him it was likely a drill rifle. ?? I passed on Jim's info about it and the hardness...It must be back in the rafters now! I apppreciate Jims and you others input on this rifle, thanks.