Cost spread of handguns, nuts.

[MTT TL]

The good news is that it is a buyers market in firearms with many excellent choices available. Something for just about everybody at a price point they like. I just hope it lasts for a while yet.

Yep, 35 years ago if you had a CHL your options were mostly:

- Some kind of J-Frame
- Tough it out with a full size heavy as a brick gun
- A Cheaply made, unreliable automatic
- An antique

Now there is something for everyone and affordable. Glock changed the whole shooting world with one pistol.

[dogtown tom]

osbornk Quote:

I don't think Glock can raise their prices because many other manufacturers sell very similar products that perform at least as well as a Glock for a much cheaper price.

Glock doesn't control the retail price, and many dealers are able to sell significantly higher than Glocks Minimum Advertised Price.
Please list the pistols that perform as well as a Glock for less $$$. There is a reason Glocks sell like they do.

I saw s Youtube video last week made by an employee of a "big name" gun store. He said a lot of people look at a Glock but they buy similar guns by other manufactures due to the price and grip angle.

Lotsa folks buy Hi Points too.

[44 AMP]

Glock changed the whole shooting world with one pistol.

The only change to my shooting world GLock made was to add some irritation.

as for the cost, don't bother to get wound up over the number of dollars, look at what it takes YOU to get those dollars.

In the mid 70s, when I was making $300 a month, a $150 handgun was expensive. (two weeks pay)

A decade later, I was making $350 a week and even a $300 dollar pistol wasn't as expensive as a $150 pistol had been. (less than one week's pay, instead of two)

How many hours do you have to work, today, to buy that $700 pistol??

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by sigarms228

Glock is also selling a whole lot more pistols that it was not that many years back which helps them maintain their prices.

No one else has a reputation for being a well proven design like Glock. They won the FBI contract after extensive testing and FBI saying Glock is the most reliable pistol it has ever tested. Now with Border Patrol and Secret Service going to Glock have added further to their reputation. Individuals may like certain features on competing pistols poly striker fired pistol more than Glock but none other has come close to being as proven a design. Glock has been established as a premium brand and allows Glock to price their products accordingly.

Don't sully this whole thing with facts..this is turning out to be a 'let's bash Glock' thread(again).
Fact is, Glock makes a great, reliable, accurate handgun(s) for not much money. Yes there are some others, but there is also lots of YT videos about their various issues...not one offs but design problems and how great the company is or isn't trying to fix them. More than few referenced in this forum.

I'm pretty new returnee to the whole handgun scene..first one was a S&W model 39 I got in 1977...had a FTF almost every magazine..
Nothing till about 3 years ago when I went shooting with son and his G17..it has had ZERO failures in probably 7500 rounds..OBTW-he cleans it about once a year, maybe.
When I went with him when he bought a G43..I bought a Ruger LC9S..mostly cuz it was $150 less than his G43..what an incredible POS..sold it..went to another Ruger, a S&W, tried 2-3 Sigs..and bought a Glock 17/4..have since bought a -19, 43, 42...

Prices(since that's what this thread is all about?)..ranged from low $400s to $500..none more than that, all new..VERY happy.

[elsancudo]

On the Taurus G2S, the recoil spring will come over the top of that plastic-ended guide rod in the long run and the gun will lock. The striker guide is not a necessary replacement.

[xring3]

my first handgun. Cost 49.95...Lawrence holster cost 20.00. Browning Nomad.22. 1963 or 64. Took all my lawn mowing money. Couldn’t believe my mom said ok! Still have it and the red and black plastic case.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by sigarms228

Glock has been established as a premium brand and allows Glock to price their products accordingly.

I have never regarded Glock as a premium brand. I have always regarded Glock as a mundane, middle-of-the-road, commodity-grade handgun, nothing more.

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca

I have never regarded Glock as a premium brand. I have always regarded Glock as a mundane, middle-of-the-road, commodity-grade handgun, nothing more.

I disagree.
Brand value is not the same as intrinsic value or retail price of a particular handgun.
As a BRAND, Glock may be the preeminent brand. Heck, how many others firearm brands have themselves in dozens of song lyrics?

As soon as John McClain said "That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!" Glock as a brand became premium, even if everything was incorrect in that movie line.

The value of a brand is built on reputation, not the price of the product.

"Coca Cola" as a brand has a bit more worth than the three cents worth of product inside the bottle.....thats why Coca Cola costs more than the generic or Sam's Choice cola.

Same with Bic pens, 3M Post It Notes and thousands of other products.

[44 AMP]

Brand value is not the same as intrinsic value or retail price of a particular....

It's not brand value, its the value of brand recognition, and it goes both ways, positive and negative.

Famous doesn't mean best. Nor does it even necessarily mean good, it just means well known.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by peterg7

When I bought my first handgun in 1982 the Blackhawk (41mag) cost $180.00 OTD NIB, I was making $12.00 hr as a production machinist.

Today that gun is $535. + at Buds, using an inflation calculator it should be $478.58

So yes guns have gone up more than inflation, exorbitant? That up to the buyer to decide. But there’s also value in SD guns that didn’t exist in 1982 that make this a more cost friendly time.


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Production CNC machinists today are making $14-18/hr.

This is horrific that in 35 years wages have only gone up about 33% while inflation has gone up about 3 times that.

One major issue is that the guns made today are not better made than they were in 1982. More often than not they're worse.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I have never regarded Glock as a premium brand. I have always regarded Glock as a mundane, middle-of-the-road, commodity-grade handgun, nothing more.

Yet, often more expensive than the 'competitors', yet Glock sell tons 'o them..Honda Civic vs Hyundai Elantra/Kia Forte.....

[zukiphile]

I am not a Glock enthusiast, but I did have one a couple of decades ago. It was a long slide for which I think I paid $500. I noticed the following virtues that were found on the other pistols I'd had previously.

1. A very simple trigger and striker design. I know a lot of people hated the feel of that trigger, but it never bothered me.

2. The polymer lower.

3. A slide finish that was durable and resisted corrosion well.

I hated the grip and the absence of a frame mounted safety lock.

Now everyone as a polymer framed pistol and a Tenifer-like process for their slides, so some of the features that distinguished a Glock are now ubiquitous.

I do regret the general move to strikers. I've had some hammer fired pistols with triggers I liked (smooth and light with little overtravel), but have never felt a striker fired pistol with an equally good trigger. Friends say the Sig 365 has a very nice trigger.

If that is a $500 to $600 pistol now, it's less expensive than that old Glock and may be a better product overall.

Originally Posted by Recoilspring

Why the high prices on the traditional gun makers when an SVD or a G2 will work just fine?

In the case of the SDV, I'd guess that a lot of people don't want a Glock knock-off with an even funnier trigger, even if the grip does seem to fit human hands better.

In the case of the G2, because buyers think those may be a bit of a gamble, whereas people expect better from more expensive purchases (HK customer service excepted). At less than half the price of a Sig365xl, I find the G2 interesting, but I've read reviews that give me reliability and durability reservations about them.

The Honda/Hyundai analogy may be apt. Honda's reputation is excellent, but they put out lemons too, and some categorically poor products.

[USNRet93]

The Honda/Hyundai analogy may be apt. Honda's reputation is excellent, but they put out lemons too, and some categorically poor products.

BUT not because of design, generally..Altho Hyundai/Kia have come a long way, many are still considered 'throw-away'..not many 'categorically poor products' from Honda I can find.
First gen Glocks, where they started and then built on their reputation, was excellent design..continued today.

I donno...not expensive, very reliable, accurate, fun to shoot..Glock works for me. . And my 2 kids.
BUT, I'm a 'utility' kinda guy. Want the car, drill, hammer, dish washer, TV, phone, etc, to just work, not into paying more $ for bells, whistles, shiny bits, pretty...pretty when it comes to a gun is not something that I understand, 'glocks are just so ugly'...
-shrug shoulders...

[zukiphile]

I don't dispute that Glock has a simplicity of design that doesn't call for a lot of change, though some changes have been requested and not forthcoming for a very long time.

I'm a fan of some Ruger designs, and I wish they had stuck with a philosophy that having made a great pistol, the P series, they would tweek it, but not fundamentally change and abandon it. Instead, they have so many new things that I've lost track.

Originally Posted by USNRet93

BUT not because of design, generally..Altho Hyundai/Kia have come a long way, many are still considered 'throw-away'..not many 'categorically poor products' from Honda I can find.

I'm a bit of a car guy, and have the benefit of periodic curiosity directed at some people in the industry. Hyundai sold at a discount a couple of decades ago despite marketing a reliable product. The discount wasn't modest--something like 20% as compared to comparable Hondas. Now they are essentially as expensive as Hondas, their reputation having caught up to the reality of their products. Hyundais currently have fewer problems on average than Hondas. https://www.jdpower.com/business/pre...lity-study-iqs

Honda is a small engine company the way Lotus is a suspension company and Porsche is a more general automotive engineering company. Honda has some engineering blind spots though. I shopped for a Honda Fit/Jazz a couple of years ago and noted that some were quiet and others very noisy. I asked someone in the industry who responded that no Honda Fit has flush doors. They aren't made so that all four doors will fit similarly on the frame, and it isn't fixable in the manufacturing process. I've looked at a half dozen nd haven't found one with four properly fit doors. Yet Honda keeps making them that way because people buy them.

Translate this into firearms. HKs are great, right? Yes, they are great unless they aren't in which case HK aren't reputed to be very helpful. Glock doesn't offer a lot of change, but it doesn't have to, Glock buyers knowing what they like. Taurus tries a lot of different ideas, not all of them good and not all of them well executed, but they get people to try them with modest pricing.

[MTT TL]

Production CNC machinists today are making $14-18/hr.

This is horrific that in 35 years wages have only gone up about 33% while inflation has gone up about 3 times that.

A sidebar but that is all changing now. The average has already shifted to $18 an hour. Most make between $16-$22 an hour with experienced workers making much more. I am seeing kids that graduated from high school five years ago making North of $60K around here. If someone is making $14 an hour they need to be looking for a new job.
No idea what caused all that.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...st/Hourly_Rate

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

A sidebar but that is all changing now. The average has already shifted to $18 an hour. Most make between $16-$22 an hour with experienced workers making much more. I am seeing kids that graduated from high school five years ago making North of $60K around here. If someone is making $14 an hour they need to be looking for a new job.
No idea what caused all that.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...st/Hourly_Rate

Had a guy at a local CNC place tell me the industry is crying for people. If I had it to do all over again, I might go that way.

[T. O'Heir]

"...Ruger has really bumped up the prices..." The 'S' in MSRP means Suggested. More likely your local shop has jacked up the retail price. However, the cost of everything has gone way up since 2002.
CNN said in 2002, gas was "a national average of $1.43 for self-serve regular...". Yesterday, they said, "The current average price for a gallon of gas nationwide is $2.56.." And it'll be going up due to the Saudi attack. Still about half what we pay. We're at around $1.18 per litre. Almost $5 per gallon.
I think I paid $350Cdn for my GP in 1985. No SS or anything but 4" barrels then.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by lee n. field

Had a guy at a local CNC place tell me the industry is crying for people. If I had it to do all over again, I might go that way.

They are, but the problem is very few employers are willing to train new guys to do anything beyond production. Day shifts (aka setup shift) are full everywhere, the competition to get them is off the charts, anybody with less than 10 years experience doing setups is basically a non starter and anyone who had setup experience is only looking to work days.

2nd and 3rd shifts (production shifts) are desperate for people, but there's no chances for anybody to improve and go from being a button pusher making production to being a setup guy. Thus, these people who have potential are stuck; they can't get paid more because they don't have the exposure to develop their skills and because day shifts are full there's no opportunity to improve.

The solution is have guys on nights do setups but the issue is there's nobody around to train them, companies aren't looking at paying guys overtime on days to stay late and develop the night crew, and the major issue is if you increase the skill of the night shift guys, they're more apt to leave to get a day job elsewhere with their fancy new setup skills.

I work nights because I can't get day jobs (lack of experience), but I got lucky and have an offer from a place that does prototype work and is looking for night shift setup guys and is willing to train. It's the perfect job for me at this stage of my career and for $5 more an hour it was a no brainer.

Few are as fortunate as I am.

[P-990]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

Production CNC machinists today are making $14-18/hr.



This is horrific that in 35 years wages have only gone up about 33% while inflation has gone up about 3 times that.



One major issue is that the guns made today are not better made than they were in 1982. More often than not they're worse.

Had to chime in on this one:

1) I absolutely agree with the horrific slow down in real wages. But that's not a topic for this forum.

2) Many guns today are in fact better made than ones made in 1982, or 1952. And I say this as an avowed fan of post-WWII S&W revolvers and pre-WWII Colt automatics. Yes, the old S&Ws and Colts had more handwork in them. The designs and manufacturing processes required it. Modern designs and processes reduce this need, helping to keep costs down while improving parts interchangeability significantly.

Fact: A lot of junk guns were made in the "good old days". I've had far too many of the old utility guns pass through my hands to believe otherwise. What we look at as the "quality of days past" is due to survivor bias. The examples that survived to today were the quality pieces that owners treated well. The older equivalents of the S&W SD, Taurus G2Cs, TC Compass bolt actions and similar guns just didn't make it 5 or 6 decades in functional condition.

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[peterg7]

I think today’s “cheap”guns are better than yesteryears, but a KGP or Blackhawk is still fundamentally the same as it was, well at least pre MIM and two piece barrel ones.


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[TruthTellers]

When I said most guns made today are worse I was talking about revolvers. Semi autos are generally better today than they were in the 70s/80s and at good prices.

[P-990]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

When I said most guns made today are worse I was talking about revolvers. Semi autos are generally better today than they were in the 70s/80s and at good prices.

The thing is, even the revolvers have had ups and down. It varies widely with manufacturer, era, model and even gun to gun. A Ruger -Six series is a pretty nicely made gun, especially for the price point of the day. (Incidentally this precedes my time.) Ruger has definitely taken some hits in the final finish work and polish in the last 12 years or so, and to be frank Ruger has always lagged the other big players on those fronts anyway.

Among S&W collectors 1982 isn't a particularly well regarded period. This is in the Bangor Punta era and the time S&W was dropping the pinned barrels on all models, and recessed chambers on the Magnums. I've had 4 different S&W revolvers from this era. I all but wore out the 629-1 from firing, my current 586 (no dash) has a pretty badly canted front sight, my 19-5 was a good gun aside from the honest finish wear and my 18-4 is as fine an example of a K-frame 22 as you can expect. I also had a late 70s vintage 15-4 that was as good a gun as my mid-50s Combat Masterpiece is. (The Combat Masterpiece is the gun that became the Model 15 for those unfamiliar.) My 1961-ish 17 (no dash) is actually a great 22 revolver that has no equal in modern mass-production.

Having said all of that, my dad had a late-90s 625 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP. Even with the MIM and other modern changes, it was superior in fit, finish and accuracy to a couple of my 80s era guns.

Later I'll get started on the internal machine work differences between my 1928 Colt 1903 .32 ACP and my new production Colt Competition in .45 ACP. Hint: the old gun doesn't win in the spit and polish on the inside.

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[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

They are, but the problem is very few employers are willing to train new guys to do anything beyond production. Day shifts (aka setup shift) are full everywhere, the competition to get them is off the charts, anybody with less than 10 years experience doing setups is basically a non starter and anyone who had setup experience is only looking to work days.

2nd and 3rd shifts (production shifts) are desperate for people, but there's no chances for anybody to improve and go from being a button pusher making production to being a setup guy. Thus, these people who have potential are stuck; they can't get paid more because they don't have the exposure to develop their skills and because day shifts are full there's no opportunity to improve.

The solution is have guys on nights do setups but the issue is there's nobody around to train them, companies aren't looking at paying guys overtime on days to stay late and develop the night crew, and the major issue is if you increase the skill of the night shift guys, they're more apt to leave to get a day job elsewhere with their fancy new setup skills.

I work nights because I can't get day jobs (lack of experience), but I got lucky and have an offer from a place that does prototype work and is looking for night shift setup guys and is willing to train. It's the perfect job for me at this stage of my career and for $5 more an hour it was a no brainer.

Few are as fortunate as I am.

And I just got a call that the manager who hired me to the job isn't there and the offer is no longer valid, new offer is less than what I make now.

I guess I should have known, everything sounded too good to be true. I'm crushed... absolutely devastated right now.

[44 AMP]

I guess I should have known, everything sounded too good to be true. I'm crushed... absolutely devastated right now.

Look on the bright side, at least withdrawl of the offer didn't screw with you, other than your hopes.

I had a "boss" do that (screw me)to me back in 79. Was unemployed, looking for any work, applied with an insulation installation company. Guy says, "looks good, but you'll have to be bonded", (forms were then filled out), Didn't say. "you're hired, show up tomorrow at 8..." or anything like that. So I was waiting on a call, to find out...

He called, alright, but he didn't call ME. He called Unemployment and told them he hired me, and then FIRED ME because I didn't show up for work the next day...

at that time, if you had been fired, you could not get unemployment.

I'd tell you what I told him but it would violate the Forum language filters...

Cheer up, a door may close but if you look enough, usually you can find another, or a window, that's open. the time spent looking is usually a drag though...can't help that it seems.

Good Luck!

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Look on the bright side, at least withdrawl of the offer didn't screw with you, other than your hopes.

I had a "boss" do that (screw me)to me back in 79. Was unemployed, looking for any work, applied with an insulation installation company. Guy says, "looks good, but you'll have to be bonded", (forms were then filled out), Didn't say. "you're hired, show up tomorrow at 8..." or anything like that. So I was waiting on a call, to find out...

He called, alright, but he didn't call ME. He called Unemployment and told them he hired me, and then FIRED ME because I didn't show up for work the next day...

at that time, if you had been fired, you could not get unemployment.

I'd tell you what I told him but it would violate the Forum language filters...

Cheer up, a door may close but if you look enough, usually you can find another, or a window, that's open. the time spent looking is usually a drag though...can't help that it seems.

Good Luck!

I've been looking for 6 months and this was the first offer I've been given that's reasonable doing work I wanted and I was looking at staying at this new job for many years as usually I only stay at places 1 or 2 years to build experience for better paying jobs in the future.

With all the reports that manufacturing is already a sector in recession in the US, I think I'm just realizing that I need to change my career and go into something not manufacturing. It's been 10 years, I'm not much further along than I was 10 years ago and 10 years from now I don't see that changing.