Progressive press... Need opinions on the different models available

[sevt_chevelle]

IMO, if you want a case feeder then a Dillon 650 is the machine you want. The 650 was built around a case feeder were as the Hornady the case feeder was an afterthought and simply doesn't run as smooth as the Dillon. The price difference between a 650 with case feeder and a LNL with case feeder is pretty darn close.

Buy Dillon equipment from Brian Enos and save on shipping.
http://www.brianenos.com/

He also has a reloading forum that is "THE" Dillon site for all things Dillon.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

The Dillon trimmer is the RT1500, the RT1200 has been discontinued. The 1500 is a heavier built motor designed to cut and trim 300blk cases from 223 brass, the older 1200 wasn't meant for that and would burn out the bearings. If you are into the 300blk then the 1500 is the cat's meow as it allows you to form and trim in one step vs the two step process of before. If you are not into the 300blk then a good used 1200 will suit you just fine, they discontinued the 1200 this summer. I have the 1200 for my 223 and 30-06.

You can mount a 1500 or 1200 on any press with the 7/8 threads. The trim die are also size dies and are small base dies. Most people running the trimmers are using a regular size die in station1 sizing the brass to say 75% and then finish off the sizing with the trim die in station 4. For ex, loading 223 for an AR I bump the should back 5 thousands, the first die is set at 3 and the trim die is set at 5.

[jmorris]

The Lee bullet feeder was the worst money I have spent on reloading equipment ever.

Anything for reloading that tells you to boil the parts when it starts to spit bullets everywhere, should be avoided.

If are sure you want case and bullet feed I would suggest a 650 or 1050.

The LNL press costs less than the Dillon but the "case feed" conversion costs more than the Dillon. The reason for this is that the Dillon 650 base machine already has the device that feeds cases from a tube into the shell plate, what they sell as the "case feed" is really just a case collator (case feed feeder). On the LNL the case feed conversion includes the collator and all the parts to feed from the tube to the shell plate. User results vary (because they are the ones that have to set the entire system up) but they never seem as fool proof as the 650.

The 650 and 1050 are also the only two manual machines where you can have case/bullet feed along with a powder check die and still seat then crimp in two steps.

This is a video of one of my 650's loading 100 rounds in under 4 min, haven't seen any of Lee presses or LNL's that run as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl63cR9Y_Y0

[marine6680]

Ok... looking at those Dillons...


550 or 650... That is the question.

I shoot about 500-600rds of 9mm a month, and about 400-500rds of 223. Sometimes less depending on weather and other factors.

My reloading tends to be in batches... I'll sit and deprime a bunch of brass, a few days later, I will clean it all in an ultrasonic cleaner, then sometime latter, load up about 1000 rounds. Its an involved and slow process, so I tend to buy more ammo than reloading my own. I just don't like to spend the time doing it.

Its the time factor... Loading 1000 rounds can take a lot of time, as I load at about 150 an hour, not counting the deprime and cleaning. (those steps are relatively quick) If I could crank out a 1000 rounds in short order, I would reload more often rather than buy.


I am leaning to the 650 for the case feed system... that seems like it will really speed things up.

Watching videos, the 550 isn't bad, but the 650 is definitely quicker. I seen someone loading 308 on a 550, and loading one every 6 seconds, so 600 an hour.

Someone loading on a 650 at a leisurely pace was doing a round every 4 seconds, which is 900 an hour.


Cost... A 550, with everything I need to load 9mm and 223, which includes quick change setups... $925.

A 650 set up the same, is $1350. So a $400 increase... Is the speed (and efficiency of movement, and lower fatigue) worth it? I'm not sure yet.

[jmorris]

550 or 650... That is the question.

For me if you want case and bullet feed there is no question other than 1050 or 650.

With either of them you can have both case and bullet feed, seat then crimp in two different stations and retain a powder check die, no other press can do this.

With a 550 you can bullet feed/seat in #3 then crimp in #4 using a GSI bullet feeder but you will be in the same boat as you would be with an LNL, not having a powder check die.

[jmorris]

Watching videos, the 550 isn't bad, but the 650 is definitely quicker. I seen someone loading 308 on a 550, and loading one every 6 seconds, so 600 an hour.

Someone loading on a 650 at a leisurely pace was doing a round every 4 seconds, which is 900 an hour.

Here is a video of one of my 1050's loading rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La83ZVKnBzw


I do load for most of my rifles on other machines though. For example n a 550 takes 5 seconds to convert from say 7-08 to 458 socom. Now that is without case or bullet feed but if your loading just a few of one an swapping what you loose not having bullet and case feed is gained during conversions, unless you have multiple presses.

[Real Gun]

If you are using lead bullets, you will need to do some research on a bullet feeder that works. Hornady says their bullet feeder is not for lead (over size or sticky). I have a Hornady LnL with case feeder, while my bullet feeder (for coated lead) consists of the Lee bullet feeder die and the Bully adapter, holding four tubes of bullets totaling about 100 in terms of 38/357. I then stop to refill bullets and primers at about the same time. That system moves much better now with the new Hornady primer tube filler. You would no longer have to take the time and invest the patience to peck a 100 primers with a tube or to do filling of multiple tubes in advance as a separate project.

[condor bravo]

Jmorris:
Your video is very impressive to say the least. I would think that now and then you would be forced to clear a mis-feed or mangled round. What problems do you run into with the 1050?

[McCarthy]

Another vote for the 650. And stay far away from that Lee Pro 1000 crap. It's a mechanics low quality favorite.

[marine6680]

The 650 looks awesome despite the added cost.

Still up in the air... As that money saved on a 550 is a lot of components.

[KEYBEAR]

I have a 650 and 550B . The 650 is a lot more loader with a lot less problems .

[sawdustdad]

If you are just loading pistol, the Square Deal is an option, though it doesn't have the case or bullet feed capability. The way I use it, for .38 or 9mm, is I load three primer tubes with primers, drop one into the press and the reload it. So I've got 400 primers ready-100 in the press and 300 standing by. That takes about 10 minutes.

Then I start loading. I have an In-Line Fabrication stand for the press. In about an hour, I am out of primers. 400 rounds loaded. That's a solid hour of inserting cases, bullets and pulling the handle. I usually quit at that point for the night. I seldom load more than 400 at a time. Come back the next night and load another 300 or 400, and a third night 200 or 300 completes the 1000 round mark. Last week I just finished loading about 2000 rounds of .38 spl. Took me 5 or 6 one-hour sessions.

I have two SDB presses, one for large primers, one for small. I'm thinking of getting another couple so I can just leave them set up for each of the cartridges I load-.38, 9mm, .45 and .44.

[Real Gun]

The 650 looks awesome despite the added cost.

Still up in the air... As that money saved on a 550 is a lot of components.

You did say you wanted productivity with a case feeder and bullet feeder. The 550B does not auto index and has 4 stations rather than 5 (give me 6). Being attracted to the price of the 550 generally means your requirements are being compromised by budget constraints. The 5 station machines are very likely the better platforms for both bullet and case feeders.

[marine6680]

Even when I have plenty of funds... Sometimes I can have problems dropping it on something.

The practical minded side of me creeps in.


A friend wants to buy my Lee classic turret off me. I got the kit plus extra turrets, the Lee on press trim, other random useful bits, and 9mm and 223 dies. (I'm going to get the Dillon dies)

It's at least $350 I have in the kit and extras, told him $250 for the whole thing. I have an electronic scale so I don't need the beam scale any more. So he will be set up well.

[jmorris]

Jmorris:
Your video is very impressive to say the least. I would think that now and then you would be forced to clear a mis-feed or mangled round. What problems do you run into with the 1050?

Almost none, it is rare that any problems occur while loading,that said, it is due to my process more than the 1050 machine itself (although the 1050 is the only manual progressive I feel is reliable enough to automate).

With bottle neck brass you cannot do everything that needs to be done in one pass on any machine, so they go through one pass to size/deprime and trim to length, generally with a "prep" tool head.



This is where you would find a mangled round, if it made it past a visual inspection before/after being tumbled.

Then they make a pass through an automated annealing machine so all of the brass is consistent on the loading pass.



It is not necessary for pistol to have a "prep" pass but I do it anyway if I am using an automated loader, as it is no extra work that has to be done by me and it is not uncommon for the machine to load 10,000 rounds without malfunction being fed processed brass.

This is how fast brass can be processed and again brass that will cause a malfunction will be found in this pass (before you are dealing with primers, powder or bullets).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ieGYpdr9I

If it match ammo it takes a trip through a roll sizer first.



Also helps to have everything sorted perfectly, I generally pass everything through this machine twice, first pass on its own, second I cull nested cases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFw7IcQUmgs

[Carriertxv]

Jmorris how much you got into that 1050 to be able to do that?

[marine6680]

My fiance is pushing for the 650... So that is probably the direction we are going.

[Real Gun]

If interested in seeing a Hornady LnL AP with bullet (lead) and case feeder in your area, give me a PM.

What is the word on feeding lead bullets to the 650?

[marine6680]

Not sure about lead... I use plated bullets anyway.

The 650 is manual bullet feed, and will likely stay that way for a while.

[marine6680]

I may take you up on that offer RG... Just not sure when I would be able.


For the sake of argument and knowing the details... What is involved with changing out a Hornady Ammo Plant from one caliber to another? Including the bullet and case feed.

Say from 9mm to 223.

The case feed on the Dillon requires a feed plate change only, the same unit works with all different calibers with just that plate change.

Is the AP similar?

The bullet feed the same way?


I priced out the 650, and I can have everything I need to do 9mm and 223... new dies, a quick change kit that includes a second powder measure, die plate and other caliber specific parts, and the case feed and caliber conversion for it as well.

Basically set up to switch between both calibers in the quickest, simplest, and most convenient way.

All that runs 1350.


The AP costs 1200, and comes with a case and bullet feed.

Quick glancing around sometime earlier in the year, I got the impression that the case and bullet feeds needed complete swaps to go between rifle and pistol... But I could be wrong, as I didn't dig into it very hard.

Edit:
I see the case feeder on the Hornady is universal with just a plate change like the Dillon.

The bullet feed is pistol or rifle in separate units.

[jmorris]

Jmorris how much you got into that 1050 to be able to do that?

Not counting time or the base machine around $600 in that one.

The loading 1050's are more time and money because of the PLC and connecting the sensors up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

[g.willikers]

As a testimonial to Dillon,
I have one progressive, a Square Deal, bought when they first came out, 30 years ago.
It's still running just fine.
About ten years after getting it, and tens of thousands of rounds later, (being a firm believer in prevented maintenance), I sent Dillon a request for a whole bunch of parts.
The loader didn't really need them, but I just decided it was time to rebuild.
A habit acquired from motor sports.
The box full of parts arrived the next week, all free - no charge.
Can't beat that.
Although, that might have backfired for Dillon.
With that kind of service and reliability, I've never given a thought getting anything else.
That 650 is mighty tempting, though.

[g.willikers]

Agreed, buy your Dillon stuff from http://brianenos.com/store/dillon.html
He's a real deal shootist and hosts an excellent competition web site.
He also has a good rep for directly replying to questions concerning reloading.

[marine6680]

So, did some looking, and a Hornady Ammo Plant will run me within a few bucks of the Dillon. All set up for 9mm and 223, and will have a pistol bullet feed.


I found a write up from someone who owned and used A dillon 650, a Hornady AP with case feed, and a Lee Loadmaster, all at the same time, as a comparison.

His conclusion, the Dillon is a bit better overall than the Hornady mechanically, but adding additional calibers is cheaper on the Hornady, and its smoother in operation than the Dillon. He ended up sticking with the Hornady. He also found the Hornady to be a bit more consistent, less variation round to round... as there is less play in the system. Not that the variances were very high with the Dillon, just larger overall.


If I get the Hornady, I have to search around a bit for the various parts. Optics Planet had the best deal on the press, with free shipping, but was out of stock on some essential parts. There isn't really a handy guide to let you know what parts you need in addition to the Ammo Plant kit.


The Brian Enos site really helps break things down and makes a one stop shop easy.


With Hornady, I get the free bullet offer... And thats a lot of bullets from all the parts.


Still leaning toward the Dillon, simply due to the ease of purchase and a solid reputation.

But the Bullet feed on the Hornady is tempting, and its not like Hornady has a bad reputation.


I hate when I get sorted down to two good choices, when the pros and cons are close to the same, but with slight variations on important points...

Which pro is more important, which con is easier to live with...

[wogpotter]

One significant thing that may, or may not effect you.
The Dillon will also load full length rifle ammo, the L&L wont.
If you don't ever plan on rifle reloading with it no biggie.

[jmorris]

I hate when I get sorted down to two good choices, when the pros and cons are close to the same, but with slight variations on important points...

Which pro is more important, which con is easier to live with...

What is the best unedited video of the ammo plant loading you have come across?

I found this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiknwpGoXo

He starts loading around 11:30 and stops around 14:15, has 8 rounds loaded and 3 malfunctions that require operator "intervention" or a case that is spit out of the feeder before making it to the shell plate.

Compare that to the video I posted on the 17th (post #27) What one would be easier for you to live with?

The one linked to in #27 is my 9mm 650, this is another video of my 45 acp 650 setup the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3hVi6PuduM

I will point out again that both 650's have powder check dies and seat then crimp not both in one station or loosing the PC die like you have to do with the LNL.