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January 13, 2013, 03:57 PM | #26 |
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JamesPond,
The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down our throats actually.
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January 13, 2013, 04:00 PM | #27 | |
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Quote:
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January 13, 2013, 04:03 PM | #28 | |
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Correlation does not always equal causation, which seems to escape some, but when the causation becomes glaringly obvious it should not be ignored.
When legal gun ownership and increased used of CCW became the norm rather than the exception in the US violent crime on the whole took a nose dive. In those cities where private ownership and carry are prohibited or severely restricted violent crime has increased. The experiment has been repeated often enough for a conclusion to be drawn. PS Quote:
I had noticed some crime statistics for the UK mention only crimes in England and Wales, crimes in Ireland and Scotland being totally ignored or simply not reported. |
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January 13, 2013, 04:03 PM | #29 |
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rickyrick - not by the UK members on this board it isn't, and the fact that the other side are making those arguments doesn't mean the pro-2A side should too, because they are equally weak, unconvincing and ill-informed.
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January 13, 2013, 04:08 PM | #30 |
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Rainbow - alternative explanations for this correlation have been offered, you have chosen to ignore them.
In the UK legal guns have always been a rural thing, gun crime is an urban thing. Done by different populations, moving in different worlds. There may well be a causal link in the USA - but there is no real evidence for one in Britain, because we are talking about a different country with a different people. There is nothing to be gained by comparing the two. |
January 13, 2013, 04:09 PM | #31 |
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I'm not arguing any side actually, I don't have facts on crime in the UK or anywhere else. I'm just answering the question as to why some are trying to disprove the figures.
I understand why some would want to discuss this, as its a big reason some have given to disarm citizens
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January 13, 2013, 04:12 PM | #32 |
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rickyrick - I get that too, but it seems that every time this comes up, immediately after shouting at the anti's for their spurious links and unsupportable conclusions, people start doing the same thing themselves. Trying so hard to prove that the UK is really dangerous and over run with knife wielding thugs, and that this is because we have strict gun laws . . . when it this bears no resemblance to reality.
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January 13, 2013, 04:15 PM | #33 | |
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Quote:
Jamaica allows people to own guns. Do you really want to see if they have a low murder rate? Try this one on for size and see if it fits your formula: I've just looked at United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime data for murders between 95 and 2011. I picked a year that had data for several particular countries for direct comparison. The year is 2006. It was the latest with data for all. In that year the British Virgin Islands got 8.6 murders per 100000, the US Virgin Islands got 39.2. The USA got 4.8, Estonia (where I live and where SD firearms are permitted) got 6.8 and UK got 1.5. Jamaica had 49.7. Do you really want to keep beating this drum? BTW, I've still not seen an answer to my earlier question.
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January 13, 2013, 04:16 PM | #34 |
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Exactly Pond, these comparisons are pointless, because all countries are different.
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January 13, 2013, 04:20 PM | #35 | |
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Quote:
So rather than trying to pick at those figures, you (collectively) should be telling those spouting the stats that you fail to see how they are relevant. I certainly don't. Show them there stats are pointless, and they'll have to resort to US stats which, surely, is more representative and useful. However, playing their game of giving these stats credence in this debate by trying to counter them does you no favours...
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January 13, 2013, 04:21 PM | #36 | |
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The media will make up what ever they want to push their view. Pro gun or anti gun. |
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January 13, 2013, 04:24 PM | #37 |
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The USA does not have universal gun laws, nor do they have universal self defense laws. So the rate for the entirety of the US is not even accurate. Some places your only option is to cower and take whatever the criminal decides to do. Other places have stand and fight laws and castle doctrines.
More and more places are, in fact, going to concealed carry licenses and castle doctrines ect...why is that?
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January 13, 2013, 04:27 PM | #38 |
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The trouble with looking at the UKs statistics is that since the ban on pistols there has been increasing amounts of gun violence.
Is this due to the fact there are no privately owned handguns? No, I doubt it. Every day in London the Police are finding weapons used in crrimes that no-one can legally own (pistols, ak47s etc). So what does that show you, It means that no matter what restrictions you have in place, criminals are still going to do what they want when they want, if they were people who upheld the law they wouldn't be called criminals would they. The reason the UK has such little gun crime is that it is a completely different society and culture. Firearms are a huge part of English traditions and what makes the UK unique, they just have a different firearm culture than the USA. |
January 13, 2013, 04:27 PM | #39 |
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James and Manta,
Even when a respectable person counters the media they instantly become a crack pot. But what y'all are saying is good.
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January 13, 2013, 04:28 PM | #40 | |
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Quote:
Pick similar cities or counties for size, population and income and compare.... And all from within the borders of the most implicated country in this debate: the US.
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January 13, 2013, 04:33 PM | #41 |
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And there in lies the problem, the media won't compare US places with differing gun laws, they wanna focus on other countries.
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January 13, 2013, 04:33 PM | #42 |
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The dirty little fact is that the US has a lot of violent minorities.
If you normalize for race and ethnicity, the USA has about the same homicide rate as the rest of the industrialized world. |
January 13, 2013, 04:44 PM | #43 |
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This is a neat video discussing this very topic (at least to my understanding of what is being said here). He compares the stats on violent crime as put out by the FBI and the Home Office in the U.K. According to those numbers, the U.K. has a lower gun murder rate, but an overall higher violent crime rate than the U.S....but he also talks about why that is, why the media and politicians never talk about it and so forth. Its worth a watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98...o1iYNg&index=4 |
January 13, 2013, 04:47 PM | #44 | |
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Quote:
True or not, what does it really bring to the table?
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January 13, 2013, 04:47 PM | #45 |
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In the last twenty years as right to carry laws have become more and more the law of the land the murder rate in the US has dropped by almost half. Violent crime has also seen similar dramatic decreases. Fatal firearm accidents have decreased by over half.
This while the number of firearm owners, number of concealed carry license holders, number of firearms have according to Gallup increased. England has historically had lower murder rates this century even before firearm laws were passed. Studies of firearm laws in this country have shown no significant measurable impact on crime rates. Factors to do with culture, homogeneity of populations, education, economic opportunity, reporting and police practices and other such factors influence crime rates significantly much more so than firearm laws. So these rough rate and number comparisons between murder crime rates are particularly useless unless one is a British talk show host on CNN or someone looking to make more of a meaningless comparison than is demonstrably there. |
January 13, 2013, 05:08 PM | #46 | |
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As it stands the different networks have their own political bias anyway, so whatever they show will be to align with their viewers. Noone buys a newspaper that prints stuff that goes against their own views or opinions of the world order. People read newspapers to get the news, bu presented in a way that will ring true with their philosophies. Same with CNN broadcasting to viewers who just want to hear their views confirmed. I hate to say it, but same with TFL: So many people have been posting the same kind of things: how the antis are all wrong, how the antis are all emotional, how the antis are all ignoring the 2nd A' etc. All that is preaching to the converted. Yes, members feel better and that they are not alone in their views, but their cause is advanced very little. So. Take the statistics from the States the media won't compare, take the real life stories of home owners, shop owners, people in the street for whom a fire arm has allowed them to defend their homes or themselves, be it a home invasion, an attempted mugging, a would-be mass-shooter or a hurricane aftermath. Put them to film, post it, share it. If that ex-soldier can write a letter and go viral, then why can't dozens of others. Don't wait for the lobby organisations to do it for you: it will look like and be propaganda. My guess is the people are sick of that, especially after such an in-your-face presidential election. They want to hear from people, not spokespeople. Keep it real, accurate, honest, and balanced (a clearly biased arguement is not more use than Piers Morgans rantings). Avoid any sensationalisation and everyday, ordinary people will see that gun ownership can allow for everyday, ordinary people, like them, to come out safe from extra-ordinary situations.
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January 13, 2013, 05:23 PM | #47 | |
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We do have a higher gun murder rate, but (and I've pointed this out to people before) part of the reason is that other countries don't have near the gang and drug problem that we have and those two things account for the majority of gun homocides in the U.S. As was pointed out in the video, we need to look at the source of the trouble and the reasons if we are truly concerned about protecting people. Until we do that, imo, talking about statistics in order to, for example, ban guns is just BS talking points in order to illicit an emotional reaction from people in order to support an agenda; not solve or lessen crime. |
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January 13, 2013, 05:24 PM | #48 | ||||
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Pond says
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The stated intent of the firearms laws in Jamaica is to eliminate firearms from the society. They intend to regulate gun ownership out of existence. from Wiki Quote:
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Last edited by Rainbow Demon; January 13, 2013 at 05:33 PM. |
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January 13, 2013, 05:33 PM | #49 | |
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Quote:
Still: kinda ignoring all the other figures I posted there aren't you? Care to comment on the almost factor-of-5 difference in murders between the US and UK Virgin Islands, seeing as you offered the latter up as a paradigm of your arguement? What about the similar (3 and a bit times) ratio of UK to US figures? What about the fact that Estonia, fastest growing EU economy in 2006 has a higher rate than both UK and US and has guns for SD?
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January 13, 2013, 05:57 PM | #50 |
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The US Virgin Islands will not recognize any firearms license issued by any US state. LEO and retired LEO are allowed to possess guns when they visit the islands, all others will have their firearms confiscated.
I haven't tracked down specifics on ownership by those native to the islands. |
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