The .22 pocket pistol the BEST for civilian personal defense?

[duroc]

Bill, David, etal,
Okay. Assuming I am all wrong about the .22, .25, .32. ammo ( I never said .380!!!!!) comparisons, and I probably am, what gun do you suggest I carry that meets my criterea of a) pants pocket small b) DA/SA c) accurate & reliable?

I am in a dilema here...is there no better answer then the TPH .22 without compromising either a,b,or,c?
Thank you all for all your info!!!
And have a very Merry Christmas today.
Duroc

p.s. when our weather clears I think I'll buy some cabbages (-: and take my Beretta .25 Bobcat and .32 Tomcat out for a comparison to the TPH .22 w/Quik-Shoks. The big problem will be HITTING the cabbages with the Berettas!!! ;-) !!!

[Harrigan]

IMHO two points;a samll gun carried is better than a larger one left behind and I would be slow to trust the advice of someone who did goverment "wet work" and then shared that fact with anyone. Please don't take that as an attack on the creditbility of the post but it makes me wonder.

[tshadow6]

I carried a Beretta .22 tip up for a few years. I felt safe. 11 rounds in the piece, a spare 10 round mag in my pocket, I was ready for a safe evening out.

[Waldo Pepper]

DUROC: Okay. Assuming I am all wrong about the .22, .25, .32. ammo ( I never said .380!!!!!) comparisons, and I probably am, what gun do you suggest I carry that meets my criterea of a) pants pocket small b) DA/SA c) accurate & reliable?

Ok IMHO this is the Best. The 15 oz S&W 642 38spl +P 5 shot that works every time. I carry it in my pocket every day, it's never been noticed even in my jeans.


On rare occasions I carry the CS45 6+1 of 45 ACP thunder. However it is not a pocket gun like the 642, but it is light and easy carried all day in a holster.

[duroc]

Waldo
Thanks for the suggestion. Nice looking gun.
And you take your brass with ya...............
Duroc

[Perldog007]

THe .22 pocket pistol may be the king of carry it all the time and cheap to practice with guns. I actually took a Ruger mkII to quals one year so I could carry the Beretta 21 for a BUG (in that state registered SOs' qualified with action and caliber)

[obxned]

I do not trust 'trick' bullets. With a .380 and Gold Dot JHPs at 1000fps, I worry about adequate penetration. With the muzzle velocity, lack of weight, and extremely poor sectional density of the 3-in-one .22 bullet, I am not at all confident in more than superficial penetration.

I'll stick with my P3AT, and if I ever carry a .22 mini-revolver, it will be loaded with CCI Velocitor or similar.

[Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Duroc

Thanks for the suggestion. Nice looking gun.
And you take your brass with ya...............
Duroc

You bet. Never leave money on the ground.

In my old age I find myself switching to wheel guns, back & knee's don't like bending and stooping these days to pick up brass.

Here is my favorite to shoot. S&W 1006 (10mm)

[duroc]

Obxned
I like your attitude as expressed in "...there is only one gun law in this country......." Good for you!!!!!!
I don't have the cahones you do, so when I can legally carry my "ALL the time gun" is the little TPH .22.
But when I can't legally carry I chose a wheel gun similar to the one Waldo suggested (mines a mod. 37 airweight). There are some negatives for ME, it's to thick being the main one...BUT...I take my brass with me!! THAT is it's very best feature if you carry with out a permit! Or even with a permit.
If there is a 'problem' make sure you finish the job, literally, then leave if at all possible!! That's advise I recieved from a retired Federal agent (actually that is his suggestion even with a permit!) Otherwise, at best "you've just taken a lawyer to raise" he said.
I may switch to the wheel gun for all carrying!
Duroc

[duroc]

Waldo
I am thinking we read from the same book.
Duroc

[boatbod]

Originally Posted by duroc

Boatbod,
Did you do any .25's, 32's ? When I checked Winchester's site www.winchester.com they list the .25 EP @ 815fps, 66fpe. The .32 HP @970fps 125fpe. The .25 was shot from a 2" barrel, none given on the .32.
You show #'s after ES & ME, what does that stuff mean?
Is it reasonable to think that since the Stinger, for instance, retained 69.7% of it's perported velocity in the shorter barrel it will also retain that percentage of it's perported energy?
Duroc

Sorry, I didn't measure anything other than a bunch of .22LR ammo.

Once the projectile leaves the barrel, it has to obey the laws of physics. That is to say, for a given weight bullet at a known muzzle velocity you can calculate the energy. Similarly, if you know, or can approximate, the ballistic coefficient, you can figure out velocity and hence energy retention downrange.

By the way, those Stingers would be packing 191fpe if they really did achieve 1640fps at the muzzle.

Notes:
"ES" - extreme spread
"ME" - muzzle energy

[duroc]

Boatbod
That's what I thought. Based upon the numbers from your tests the Stinger was 69.7% of CCIs perported 1640fps out of a 4" barrel thus the fpe would be 69.7% of their perported 191fpe. That's 133 fpe. Not bad in my book.

I don't know how different an even shorter barrel would be, like a 2" barrel, we could project some here.....if after loosing 80% of barrel length (18" to 4" ) we lost a bit over 30% of the fps & fpe; if we lost 90% of the barrel (18" to 2" ) what would we loose say a bit over 40% of the fps & fpe???
Could that mean a Stinger out of a 2" barrel at 191fpe times say 59% would be 112.6 fpe?? IF that is the case, which I have no idea if it really is as I doubt the powder burn is perfectly proportional to barrel length, the .25 @ 66fpe, the Stinger @ 112fpe, and the .32 @125fpe...hmmmmmm
I am still gonna buy some cabbages.....(-:
Thanks, I hope you had a Merry Christmas
Duroc

[David Armstrong]

what gun do you suggest I carry that meets my criterea of a) pants pocket small b) DA/SA c) accurate & reliable?

I don't object to the .22, my bone of contention is the questionable hyping of it as some sort of uber-round. If you want to shoot a .22, shoot a .22. I frequently carry a Beretta Model 21 in .22LR. I have always found the TPH to be unreliable, but if it works for you, great. In the overall scheme of dfensive handgun use, caliber is probably the least important factor, but that is the one so many people get tied up in knots about. So I suggest you carry whatever you are comfortable with that will go bang when you want it to and that will hit the target when you want it to. Whatever gun and caliber that is, great. Just don't try to decieve yourself or others about the effects of some "magic bullet".

The big problem will be HITTING the cabbages with the Berettas!!! ;-) !!!

Your bigger problem is assuming that the effect on the cabbages is indicative of anything other than the effect on a cabbage.

THAT is it's very best feature if you carry with out a permit! Or even with a permit.
If there is a 'problem' make sure you finish the job, literally, then leave if at all possible!! That's advise I recieved from a retired Federal agent

That "advice" is a real fast way to spend a lot of time in a cell with a guy named Bubba that thinks you're real cute. You have just changed what might have been a perfectly legal shoot into a criminal act. Nothing personal, but it sounds like you have a very strange circle of advisers who haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about when it comes to ammunition, guns, or the law.

[Jody Hudson]

Ladies (I suspect some are reading) and Gentlemen; please note a few things from my first post, which started this thread, almost 7 years ago!

1. The Title: "The .22 pocket pistol the BEST for civilian personal defense?" Please note the all important Question Mark at the end.

2. PLEASE: "Try it yourself before you take me on with this argument please."

3. "OK... I agree... Bigger is better..."

In the seven years since I started this thread, I have switched from the Walther TPH and the 7 rounds of .22 Quick-Shock to the Keltec P-11 with 13 rounds of 9mm Corbon DPX. This is my first choice now for always (for me this means in the woods and marshes as I work on rural real estate and scenic rural photography where I am out and about in uninhabited areas - that are rife with feral dogs, cats, and sometimes feral pigs.

My "magic bullet" is now the Corbon DPX, based upon my considerable testing.

This old post has certainly taken on a life of it's own; fueled to a great extent by speculation, supposition, and personal opinions that are not always well tested. My original purpose for this thread was to encourage looking and testing on your own, in order to possibly have another choice for an Everywhere and ALL THE TIME carry pistol.
Enjoy; Merry Christmas!

[boatbod]

Originally Posted by duroc

That's what I thought. Based upon the numbers from your tests the Stinger was 69.7% of CCIs perported 1640fps out of a 4" barrel thus the fpe would be 69.7% of their perported 191fpe. That's 133 fpe. Not bad in my book.

At a measured MV of 1144fps, the 32gr Stinger only carries 93fpe muzzle energy. Energy is related to velocity squared, so things don't decrease linearly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

[brentfoto]

I've spent all this time reading this undying thread only to learn you have switched to a 9mm carry gun! Gggeeeeessssssshhhl...!

I just purchased a NAA .22LR mini-revolver today. So where does that leave ME?

With all due respect, original poster was just too gung-ho on this Quik-Shok thing in .22 ...now-Cor-bon DPX in 9mm. Why not Quik-Shok in the 9mm? Well, I just don't know...

I have a model 49 J-frame Smith for concealed but it is simply too heavy and I can't spring for a 642 at this time. So that leaves the .22, and it only has a 1 1/8" bbl. I can't imagine a smaller SD gun than that NAA mini-revolver. But I just don't know what ammo to use in it for SD.

I even started another thread on the subject.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...40#post2632540

(BTW, Kel-Tecs aren't sold here in my State. I don't know the reason and I'm not going to speculate).

[joneb]

I just don't know what ammo to use in it for SD.

I would go with something like a CCI mini mag. solid point, and make sure you can shoot it very well

[David Armstrong]

But I just don't know what ammo to use in it for SD.

Whatever ammo is reliable. I use match-grade in mine because it is the most likely to go bang when I pull the trigger. It's a .22, folks. There isn't going to be much difference between the rounds as it relates to SD.

[duroc]

David, Boatbod, Bill, et al,
This whole thing started, long ago, and was fueled by the .22 Quik-Shok discussion. In your opinions are the Quik-shok, Dpx, Hydo-shock, PowerBall, Silver Tip, and all the other super ammo's in various cal. anything more than a little extra proformance and a lot of extra hype? For self defense I mean.
Several of you seem to really know what you are talking about....not just shooting watermelons and reading tables like I do.
Opinions please?????
Duroc

[David Armstrong]

In your opinions are the Quik-shok, Dpx, Hydo-shock, PowerBall, Silver Tip, and all the other super ammo's in various cal. anything more than a little extra proformance and a lot of extra hype?

You've got a lot of variation there. IMO some are good choices, some are nothing but hype. Here is a pretty good rule of thumb---shoot normal defense rounds that lots of other folks carry. There is a reason the police carry Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydra-shok, etc. They are good, general purpose rounds. Exotics might work real good for a particular situation, but are pretty worthless outside of that situation.

[brentfoto]

Was Glaser originally an 'exotic'?

Is Glaser an 'exotic' now, in light of the fact it's now owned by Cor-Bon?

Is 'Cor-Bon' an exotic?

I don't know the accuracy of the following, but I read online in a forum somewhere that the Sky Marshal program may use them (Glasers). Is it rumor or fact?

regards,

I've never seen a thread that has lasted this long-ever. In fact, it never occurred to me that a thread might even last this long!

[duroc]

Thanks David....
your reply makes good common sense. I guess some of us, enough to fuel an industry, are interested in finding the super bullit. The concept of a super bullit is easy to believe.
What do you think of .380 PowerBalls? I like how they feed as ball ammo.
Duroc

[Magyar]

I'm reminded about Jeff Cooper (Mr. 45 himself!) when asked if he only had a .22 to rely on in case of a personal attack...
He smiled and said, " Empty the entire mag aimed at the perp's face"...
No one will dispute that because of weight, recoil, practice and other factors; that one can be extremely accurate with a .22 despite having little or no sights....However, one can be just as proficient with larger calibers using the same regimen....
Beside plinking, my .22 revolver stays in the truck's console as a b.u.g...

[Jody Hudson]

There has been considerable evolution of guns and ammo during the life of this thread...

This whole thing started, long ago, and was fueled by the .22 Quik-Shok discussion. In your opinions are the Quik-shok, Dpx, Hydo-shock, PowerBall, Silver Tip, and all the other super ammo's in various cal. anything more than a little extra proformance and a lot of extra hype? For self defense I mean.
Several of you seem to really know what you are talking about....not just shooting watermelons and reading tables like I do.
Opinions please?????
Duroc

I pay a LOT of attention to what has been tested and adopted by specialized military, law enforcement and by regular police. I used Silver Tip when it first came out and then Hydroshok for s very short period because I found it hyped beyond my experience with it; then the police h.v. Nyclad in 9mm for years, a short stint with PowerBall but found them to come apart too often, then Quick-Shok based upon my usual research but far more upon my personal findings of accuracy, animal shootings, geletin and lots of fruits and vegetables . Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point is what I measure others by as it is usually the best and I was able to get quite a bit when New Jersey dumped much of it on the market a few years ago; the Speer GDHP+P 9mm is still the best I have found other than the Corbon DPX in 9mm. My change to DPX is based upon extensive balistic tests with denim, glass, steel and my personal pistols, especially the P-11.

I was fortunate enough to spend an afternoon with a Corbon Rep and his ammo and calibrated geletin while a bunch of us tested the best of what we had in several calibers against the Corbon DPX. The big difference was the the DPX penetrated a bit farther in each caliber, beyond anything else and much more than most. The DPX also was immune to speed in all the guns we chose from carbines to short pistols like my P-11; the only difference being slight increases in diameter (always far larger than any other bullet) and more penetration being in the 14" to 18" range.

The DPX is a very deep, solid copper, pointed tube with sharpened and very wide opening and a closed bottom. There is no separation and there was no loss of mass in any of the tests we did, just an extreeme flowering of the bullet. We tested the DPX in every caliber against every top quality round that several dozen of us shooters had and the DPX always opened wider and penetrated deeper. What is MOST important is that no matter what we put in front of the geletin; several layers of denim, leather, wood, metal or glass -- the Corbon DPX still did it's work and performed almost identically. AND it has proven to be the most accurate for me and most others; bullet placement still reining over all. There is a MAJOR exception and that is that the .380 DPX does not always open properly!!! Usually but not always!

Here are some references:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...C_enUS250US250

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...C_enUS250US250

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...US250%26sa%3DN



Do some image searches on the search engines for performance and penetration of Corbon DPX as there are hundreds more good references; some that I posted with pictures of my day with the Corbon Rep but I don't find them now and I must go... gotta work sometimes ya know!

In summation; my choices do evolve as testing, research and evidence from my own experience shows how I may improve my choices.

[Hawkseye]

I did some testing of the 22 LR and the 25 ACP, firing into telephone books. I had always heard that the 22 LR may have a slight edge on the little 25 ACP. What I found out from testing is that when fired from similar firearms, like a 2" barrel, the .25 ACP is very superior to the .22 LR. The .25 ACP penetrated 2000 pages of the phone book, blew a large hole out the backside, and struck the backstop leaving a significant dent. The .22 LR fired from a similar pistol only penetrated about 750 pages of the phone book with both high velocity and yellow jacket ammo. What was interesting to me was that when I fired the .22LR ammo from a rifle, it performed almost identical to the .25ACP from the mini-gun (a Beretta 950).

My conclusion is that all of the comparisons I have read that indicated a slight edge for the .22LR were comparing rifle ballistics for the .22LR to mini-gun ballistics for the .25ACP. I completed the tests with a firm(I mean NO DOUBT AT ALL) conclusion that the .25ACP is much superior to a .22LR when fired from similar firearms.