What is the current Russian sidearm?

wild cat mccane · September 9, 2020, 09:10 AM

I wiki'd and came to no better understanding.

Kinda funny ours is 9mm NATO due to Russia, but I can't name their current army handgun.

Richard b · September 9, 2020, 10:20 AM

GSh18

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tipoc · September 9, 2020, 07:50 PM

Here is that gun as described by Modern Weapons.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/other-handguns/gsh-18/

I think that Russia has moved beyond these.

tipoc

tipoc · September 9, 2020, 07:55 PM

Well here is one:

The MP-443 Grach

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443...vich%20Yarygin.

Another:

The Udav

https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tec...n-russian-army

The PL-15

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...ig-sauer-61502

and some more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Ground_Forces

tipoc

Chui · September 11, 2020, 09:12 AM

Some units are using Glocks but I cannot imagine the number is infinitesimal since Austria is a NATO nation.

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Forte S+W · September 12, 2020, 09:17 AM

I like how the website talking about the Udav Pistol mentions that it fires 9x21 cartridge which is basically a scaled up 9x18 Makarov and "offers performance comparable to the American .40 S&W cartridge".

Apparently Russia didn't get the FBI's memo which concluded that .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and even .357 SIG offers no practical increase in performance over 9mm Luger, that of they just didn't automatically take their word for it.

TunnelRat · September 12, 2020, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

I like how the website talking about the Udav Pistol mentions that it fires 9x21 cartridge which is basically a scaled up 9x18 Makarov and "offers performance comparable to the American .40 S&W cartridge".

Apparently Russia didn't get the FBI's memo which concluded that .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and even .357 SIG offers no practical increase in performance over 9mm Luger, that of they just didn't automatically take their word for it.

Yes the Russians have changed their choice of cartridge over the years. Maybe they got some feedback, looked at some data, and came to a conclusion. Almost just like what the FBI did.

Americans and the Russians have used different cartridges for some time. I’m not surprised that’s still the case.

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Forte S+W · September 12, 2020, 01:39 PM

The Russians have quite literally always used different cartridges than other countries, dating all the way back to the .44 Russian cartridge.

I just got a kick out of the fact that the article praised the 9x21 cartridge for being as powerful as .40 S&W, when practically every article these days paints the .40 S&W cartridge as practically useless because supposedly it's no more effective than 9mm Luger.

TunnelRat · September 12, 2020, 02:24 PM

Indeed. Some more “ammunition” for the next caliber war thread.

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Richard b · September 12, 2020, 02:31 PM

Don't cartridges for the military have different requirements and issues than those for police service? HOW do NATO specs compare to the FBI minimums ?

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Forte S+W · September 12, 2020, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Indeed. Some more “ammunition” for the next caliber war thread.

Nah, there's an ammo shortage right now, can't go wasting it on pointless contests in which every participant automatically loses by default, and the so-called "winner" is granted a consolation prize for wasting the most hours of their life.

Honestly, I wish that everyone could just discuss their favorite cartridges without it turning into a compilation of projected insecurities and the persistent attempt to compensate for them, complete with thinly-veiled, hastily modified innuendo that isn't fooling anyone.

So yeah, let's NOT do that.

On-Topic: Does anyone know if the Udav Pistol is a clone of the Beretta PX4 Storm? I ask because it has some aesthetic similarities, but it doesn't look like it has the same rotating barrel design.

TunnelRat · September 12, 2020, 03:05 PM

Was just a joke. Have a good day.

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Fishbed77 · September 14, 2020, 01:18 PM

Here is the answer to the OP’s question:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._Ground_Forces

Officially, the MP-443 Grach is the standard issue sidearm of Russian ground forces, but adoption has been slow, and the Makarov PM is still widely issued.

wild cat mccane · September 15, 2020, 09:04 AM

That 9x21 reference isn't a data reference though. 9x21 wouldn't change the number of rounds in a mag either.

That PL-15 looks to be lower had to slide axis than anything we have.

ddc · September 17, 2020, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

I like how the website talking about the Udav Pistol mentions that it fires 9x21 cartridge which is basically a scaled up 9x18 Makarov and "offers performance comparable to the American .40 S&W cartridge".

Apparently Russia didn't get the FBI's memo which concluded that .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and even .357 SIG offers no practical increase in performance over 9mm Luger, that of they just didn't automatically take their word for it.

I thought 9x21 was basically a scaled up 9x19?

Ignition Override · September 18, 2020, 10:48 PM

Didn't at least one Russian LEO "agency" order Czech CZ 75s, several years ago?

Might have read that on "the Original CZ Forum" a few years ago.

It might not make sense at all if Russia has no other agency using 9x19 Luger ammunition.

Forte S+W · September 19, 2020, 08:50 AM

Quote:

I thought 9x21 was basically a scaled up 9x19?

You're thinking of 9x21 IMI, which is a different cartridges than the 9x21 Gyurza the Russians are using.

dyl · September 19, 2020, 10:19 AM

If the Grach is what they went with, it makes sense by the pictures - less parts, tilt barrel lockup, compared to the GSH-18. Interesting that Wikipedia (if it's right) says it's a Double Action with a hammer (and I don't see a safety or decocker). The slide stop *is* reversible, but the mag release button isn't. Front sight is milled in.

It would have been more entertaining if they went with that GSH-18, but I'm guessing the ammo and milling would have been expensive to keep as their main sidearm. Bet it works well in cold weather though.

wild cat mccane · September 19, 2020, 06:14 PM

The standardized US military sidearm is the P320.

From this thread with Wiki referencing, I don't think we've had an authoritative "this is the "standard" handgun of the regular Russian military."

TunnelRat · September 19, 2020, 06:40 PM

Maybe this is all you’re going to get from an Internet forum? You could call the Russian embassy.

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zoo · September 19, 2020, 06:51 PM

I will call the local Russian embassy and DEMAND an answer! Hold on. They might not have one out here in the desert.

TunnelRat · September 19, 2020, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoo

I will call the local Russian embassy and DEMAND an answer!

Right? I’m sure they’ll be eager to help.

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tipoc · September 19, 2020, 06:55 PM

Ask Joe Biden, he'll tell ya Trump knows for sure!

tipoc

zoo · September 19, 2020, 06:59 PM

Oh I’ve dealt with a Russian or two in my day. THEY’LL ANSWER COMRADE!

Average Joe · September 21, 2020, 05:10 PM

Whatever it is, it's probably old and rusty.

September 9, 2020, 09:10 AM	#1
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,624	What is the current Russian sidearm? I wiki'd and came to no better understanding. Kinda funny ours is 9mm NATO due to Russia, but I can't name their current army handgun.

September 9, 2020, 07:50 PM	#3
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Here is that gun as described by Modern Weapons. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/other-handguns/gsh-18/ I think that Russia has moved beyond these. tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

September 9, 2020, 07:55 PM	#4
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Well here is one: The MP-443 Grach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443...vich%20Yarygin. Another: The Udav https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tec...n-russian-army The PL-15 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...ig-sauer-61502 and some more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Ground_Forces tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

September 12, 2020, 09:17 AM	#6
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	I like how the website talking about the Udav Pistol mentions that it fires 9x21 cartridge which is basically a scaled up 9x18 Makarov and "offers performance comparable to the American .40 S&W cartridge". Apparently Russia didn't get the FBI's memo which concluded that .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and even .357 SIG offers no practical increase in performance over 9mm Luger, that of they just didn't automatically take their word for it. __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

September 12, 2020, 01:39 PM	#8
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	The Russians have quite literally always used different cartridges than other countries, dating all the way back to the .44 Russian cartridge. I just got a kick out of the fact that the article praised the 9x21 cartridge for being as powerful as .40 S&W, when practically every article these days paints the .40 S&W cartridge as practically useless because supposedly it's no more effective than 9mm Luger. __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

September 9, 2020, 10:20 AM	#2
Richard b Member Join Date: December 8, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 70	GSh18 Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

September 11, 2020, 09:12 AM	#5
Chui Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2004 Posts: 1,784	Some units are using Glocks but I cannot imagine the number is infinitesimal since Austria is a NATO nation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

September 12, 2020, 02:24 PM	#9
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,214	Indeed. Some more “ammunition” for the next caliber war thread. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

September 12, 2020, 02:31 PM	#10
Richard b Member Join Date: December 8, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 70	Don't cartridges for the military have different requirements and issues than those for police service? HOW do NATO specs compare to the FBI minimums ? Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

September 12, 2020, 03:05 PM	#12
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,214	Was just a joke. Have a good day. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

September 14, 2020, 01:18 PM	#13
Fishbed77 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 4,862	Here is the answer to the OP’s question: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._Ground_Forces Officially, the MP-443 Grach is the standard issue sidearm of Russian ground forces, but adoption has been slow, and the Makarov PM is still widely issued.

September 15, 2020, 09:04 AM	#14
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,624	That 9x21 reference isn't a data reference though. 9x21 wouldn't change the number of rounds in a mag either. That PL-15 looks to be lower had to slide axis than anything we have.

September 18, 2020, 10:48 PM	#16
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	Didn't at least one Russian LEO "agency" order Czech CZ 75s, several years ago? Might have read that on "the Original CZ Forum" a few years ago. It might not make sense at all if Russia has no other agency using 9x19 Luger ammunition.

September 19, 2020, 10:19 AM	#18
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	If the Grach is what they went with, it makes sense by the pictures - less parts, tilt barrel lockup, compared to the GSH-18. Interesting that Wikipedia (if it's right) says it's a Double Action with a hammer (and I don't see a safety or decocker). The slide stop is reversible, but the mag release button isn't. Front sight is milled in. It would have been more entertaining if they went with that GSH-18, but I'm guessing the ammo and milling would have been expensive to keep as their main sidearm. Bet it works well in cold weather though.

September 19, 2020, 06:14 PM	#19
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,624	The standardized US military sidearm is the P320. From this thread with Wiki referencing, I don't think we've had an authoritative "this is the "standard" handgun of the regular Russian military."

September 19, 2020, 06:40 PM	#20
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,214	Maybe this is all you’re going to get from an Internet forum? You could call the Russian embassy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

September 19, 2020, 06:51 PM	#21
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	I will call the local Russian embassy and DEMAND an answer! Hold on. They might not have one out here in the desert.

September 19, 2020, 06:55 PM	#23
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Ask Joe Biden, he'll tell ya Trump knows for sure! tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

September 19, 2020, 06:59 PM	#24
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	Oh I’ve dealt with a Russian or two in my day. THEY’LL ANSWER COMRADE!

September 21, 2020, 05:10 PM	#25
Average Joe Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,325	Whatever it is, it's probably old and rusty.