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Old April 20, 2019, 11:43 PM   #26
JDBerg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-O:
I find the walther pps m2 to have a decent trigger. It’s thin and can be found for sub $300.
And the PPS-M2 has a cocking indicator on the back plane of the slide. If you cover it with your thumb while you’re holstering the gun, the trigger shouldn’t get snagged.
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Old April 20, 2019, 11:50 PM   #27
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I have a personal preference toward hammer fired true DAO or traditional DA/SA but I carry a Glock these days. The only advantage I see with DAO or DA/SA is second strike capability. Not really an issue with modern ammo and extra heavy striker springs.
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Old April 21, 2019, 01:30 AM   #28
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I was a DA/SA guy for 30 years. I now carry a CZ P-10C. I qualify and use the Glock 17 for work for 17 years, but I never really liked them. For some reason the P-10C just really caught my eye and hand, and I haven't looked back.
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Old April 21, 2019, 04:52 PM   #29
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That's why you train with your carry gun. I have absolute confidence in my gun with its great trigger.
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Old April 21, 2019, 06:25 PM   #30
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The very reason that I carry an S&W SD9VE is because of the trigger. It seems everyone that ever mentions one, the first to do is the Apex trigger routine. I prefer my carry triggers to be a little on the stiff side just in case. I want to consciously pull the trigger, not accidentally pull the trigger. I won't have it any other way.
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Old May 5, 2019, 10:50 AM   #31
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I was one of those guys. I grew up with SA 1911s and BHPs. I even owned a few SA/DA Smiths and a PPK/s, even though the safeties went the wrong way. I eased into striker fired guns with a Ruger lcp (1st gen). Trigger pull was comparable to a DA revolver so that was ok. My next one was a Bersa BP9CC, which was an excellent CCW, but I still missed the reassurance of a manual safety. I thought the Kimber Solo would be my dream gun. Striker fired with a 1911 style safety. Alas, it was not to be. It had too many malfunctions for me to trust it with my life. I now carry a SigP365. Although I hear that there is a safety model available, they must be pretty scarce, as I've never seen one. I'm probably overly cautious with holstering, and I never pocket carry without a pocket holster. I know enough to keep my booger hook off the bang switch, so I've finally started getting comfortable with it.
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Old May 5, 2019, 01:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by chemcal View Post
Having shot many of these, and shot them well, I am still very wary of carrying one. In several decades of having a ccw, it's been either a DAO or DA/SA; I've bought and sold 6 strikers, and newer ones seem to have shorter take up and lighter triggers. Anyone go through this and eventually acclimate?
"Hammer vs. striker" is not a thing for me. Nothing I concern myself with.

What's it take to get used to it? In my case, 1)a good holster that holds the gun securely and protects the trigger, Holstered, unless something actually breaks, nothing is going to make that gun "just go off". 2) Examining the gun and learning how it works, and working out for myself that unless the trigger is pulled, it's not going to "just go off". 3) Something to help secure the gun in the 2 seconds you're holstering it. In the case of a Glock, a striker control device backplate. In the case of an XD or XDS, guiding the slide down exactly the same way, which disengages the grip safety when your palm rides up from it.
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Old May 5, 2019, 02:00 PM   #33
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Carrying for nearly ten years now and I couldn't really warm up to the idea BEFORE I actually got my license -- but then simply jumped in with both feet. On my first long day licensed and carrying all day long, it was a borrowed Springfield XD subcompact, no issues. Shortly after I bought a Glock as my first EDC.

I'm on just my second EDC now, it's a Walther PPQm2.

I don't care for striker guns, I own only a few, but they are what I choose for carry.
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Old May 5, 2019, 07:40 PM   #34
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I don't care for striker guns, I own only a few, but they are what I choose for carry.

Sevens: Understanding the above may help;would you please clarify this?
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Old May 5, 2019, 08:02 PM   #35
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Having shot many of these, and shot them well, I am still very wary of carrying one.
My advice is NOT to buy a gun for CC if you're not comfortable with the mode of operation. There are way too many options on the market these days for that to make any sense.
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Old May 5, 2019, 10:21 PM   #36
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I'd love to clarify it -- but at the risk of boring the audience with the length of my post.

Handguns are my passion, I love their mechanics and especially well-built, precise fitted, highly capable handguns with long barrels, a long sight radius, large target sights, awe-inspiring triggers and steel construction. Striker fired Tupperware plastic guns are soulless, heartless, ugly, blocky, and simply cannot get from me the endless love that I have for the handguns that I hold dear.

However!
I find that striker fired Tupperware guns are extremely good in the role of a daily carry gun. Doesn't matter a lick if they get dinged or sweated upon as they were born homely. Mine have no manual safeties so it's always a very simple draw & engage. These guns are lighter but give me no functional issues whatsoever. Their fitment compared to some of my elite handguns could be termed "loose as a goose", this would seem to me that they are less likely to be precise (not needed) and perhaps more likely to run reliably (most welcome.)

My few striker fired guns are like a Craftsman screwdriver to me. While there are tools that are modern marvels, beautiful examples of engineering & build quality and devices that can bring a smile to your face simply upon inspection, a Craftsman screwdriver wouldn't be described that way. But if you need a device to remove/replace a screw, a slick dial caliper is really a poor choice when what you really need is that basic Craftsman screwdriver.

So for a carry gun, I am 100% sold on my Walther PPQ (and I could make just as good work with a Glock, M&P, etc etc) but you'll never find me reading up on new striker guns that debuted at the SHOT Show, I really don't care about endless S&W Shield promotions, I don't know what a Gen 5 Glock offers over a Gen 4 (and no need to know... ever) and I honestly doubt that I ever will.

I was in my formative gun years almost EXACTLY when the Glock hit the market and took the world by storm. With the exception of the earlier (horrendous looking) HK that preceeded the Glock, I've been a rabid handgun addict since the mid-to-late 1980's so I've been knee-deep in this lifestyle through nearly EVERY striker fired handgun that's ever been, or been relevant as a primary carry gun. Still not yet have I found one that could generate the passion in my heart the way that a Smith & Wesson Model 52 does.

At this point, it's a safe bet that I never will. This is how I'd prefer it! And I still think they are perfect for carry. (and more ugly to look at than roadkill.)
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Old May 6, 2019, 01:54 AM   #37
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Use a proper holster and ingrain the safety rules, especially the part about keeping one's finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. The idea that a heavier trigger pull is some sort of safeguard against bad gun handling is foolish in my opinion.

There's lots of choices out there. Just pick one you like and roll with it.
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Old May 6, 2019, 08:41 AM   #38
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My preferred CC method of striker guns is OWB in kydex, if I CC IWB it’s a leather holster that I remove from person before reholstering.


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Old May 6, 2019, 06:24 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
My advice is NOT to buy a gun for CC if you're not comfortable with the mode of operation. There are way too many options on the market these days for that to make any sense.
I have to agree with JohnKSa on this. Given the variety of pistols on the market today, there's really no reason to force oneself to warm up to anything for carry. Somebody out there makes a pistol that is already in your comfort zone.
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Old May 7, 2019, 06:00 AM   #40
OhioGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chemcal View Post
Having shot many of these, and shot them well, I am still very wary of carrying one. In several decades of having a ccw, it's been either a DAO or DA/SA; I've bought and sold 6 strikers, and newer ones seem to have shorter take up and lighter triggers. Anyone go through this and eventually acclimate?
As K-Mac said up earlier, a Glock or any other pistol will not magically fire itself. So the uncertainty about a striker fired gun (or any gun with a "light and short" trigger -- itself open to interpretation even among advocates of DA triggers for carry) has to revolve around times when the trigger could be inadvertently pulled. These would seem to include:

- Manipulation of the weapon outside its holster -- loading or unloading before/after carry
- Maintenance of the weapon -- disassembly prior to cleaning
- Putting the gun into the holster
- Pulling the gun from the holster
- Pointing the gun at something with the trigger finger where it shouldn't be

The first two aren't done under stress and are accounted for by being attentive and following rules of safety -- such as keeping your finger clear, and aiming the gun at a "safe" spot where a bullet can't cause injury to yourself or anyone else -- in my case, a filing cabinet filled with old papers in front of a concrete wall in a basement.

The last one *should* fall under "keep your finger off..." but humans are humans and if this is being done under stress -- and why else would it ever be out of the holster when not at the range? -- it's iffy whether a heavier trigger will necessarily do a lot. A startle response will exert enough force to squeeze even a heavy trigger.

The holstering operations are what would make me the most nervous, especially inserting into the holster. That's where many if not all reports of "Glock leg" seem to come from. In my opinion, striker guns that offer some way to immobilize the trigger have an advantage here -- same as a hammer that you can ride with your thumb. For not much money you can outfit pretty much any Glock with "The Gadget" (look it up), Springfields have grip safeties that keep the trigger from moving when not in a firing grip, Walther PPS M2 has an exposed pin on the back that will at least jab your thumb pretty hard if something is pressing the trigger. And then there are plenty of thumb safety models. Some people use the safety only when putting into the holster, then deactivate it again when it's in, so they don't have to fumble with it later. I don't know whether that's wise or not, but it's an option.

Are any of those specific instances of more or less concern to you?

I prefer DA/SA personally, and not only for reasons of (possible margin of) safety. But I usually carry a PPS M2 because my CZ P-07 is pretty chunky and rarely an option for concealment in the clothing I have to wear most of the time.

You could always get a P365 with a thumb safety -- I think they're available now -- so long as you train with the safety, it gives you the extra margin, plus it holds a lot of rounds and it's almost a pocket gun.
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Old May 7, 2019, 07:27 AM   #41
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, if I CC IWB it’s a leather holster that I remove from person before reholstering.


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I do this as well..NO NEED to 'quickly' re-holster, I don't see any reason for that..
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Old May 7, 2019, 09:32 AM   #42
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I mostly carry striker guns but they have safeties. To carry a handgun without a safety I'd want a double action first pull to feel safe, whether it's a revolver or semi-auto. As another poster stated, there are plenty of different options available so I say pick something you're comfortable with rather than forcing yourself to get comfortable with something you're not.
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Old May 7, 2019, 10:40 AM   #43
JDBerg
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http://aliengearholsters.com/blog/ho...lster-handgun/

Another way to consider this is that the holster design is critical to safety of a carry gun. Good read on the subject.
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Old May 7, 2019, 05:43 PM   #44
UncleEd
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It seems that a lot of the trouble with striker fired
pistols is tied to clothing getting in the way of the
trigger.

It's a great argument in favor of the nudist life
style.
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Old May 8, 2019, 05:37 AM   #45
OhioGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
It seems that a lot of the trouble with striker fired
pistols is tied to clothing getting in the way of the
trigger.

It's a great argument in favor of the nudist life
style.
Agreed, but then, concealment becomes extremely uncomfortable.
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Old May 18, 2019, 05:45 PM   #46
chemcal
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OhioGuy: just saw the above; Great Line!(LMAO) and great post above that.
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Old May 19, 2019, 06:39 AM   #47
Carl the Floor Walker
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Ah the training argument. I spent years and tens of thousands of rounds shooting DA/SA, whether it was a SIG P228/P229 or an HK P2000, including a number of training events at SIG Sauer Academy. I felt very confident with them. But now I use a Glock. Why? Because that first shot accuracy wasn't as consistently good as I wanted for myself. I found I could also maintain proficiency with less shooting time (I still shoot multiple times a month) and that does matter for me. I also found the safety differences to not be what I had assumed originally. Yes there is less required movement of the trigger. If you're going to point to physics, then we can't ignore that less travel and less weight on a trigger leaves less time and less tendency to screw up the sight pixture. If your argument is more training can reduce the effect that has, I agree, but then would also say more training in safe gun handling reduces the negligent behavior as well.

I've also, and I've mentioned this before a number of times on this forum, had a negligent discharge with a S&W 5903. That was a pistol that had a manual safety, a magazine disconnect, and a DA first pull. How then did all these safeties not stop me? Because I had made the decision to press the trigger on what I thought was an empty chamber and that chamber wasn't empty. Many, if not most, of the cases of negligence I read both locally and online when it comes to firearms have more to do with that then people momentarily placing fingers on triggers. And once you've made that decision those safeties or double action pull aren't going to stop you.

As for your friend. You point to physics. I point to mechanics. A Glock pistol not acted on by an external force and in good mechanical working condition (not altered and well maintained) can't magically shoot itself. I'm sorry but you'd have to have a catastrophic failure of multiple internal parts for that to even start to be a possibility. So if we want to go with logic and I'm left with believing your friend's story, or your internet repetition of that story, or what I know mechanically, I'm more inclined to believe the mechanics.

As for my cave dwelling, while I like spelunking I do get out and I have read the cases of negligence. In many of them I'm not convinced another type of pistol would have completely stopped the problem. Striker fired pistols have been sold in the millions and are one of the most, if not the most, popular pistol type today. Even if 0.01% of people that own them are negligent to the point of causing an incident that leaves thousands of potential incidents. My guess is more people end up in car accidents and die in a year than people that die from firearms negligence. Does that mean because of that I shouldn't drive my car?

All risk is relative. If someone says, "I don't care, I don't want to take that risk", fair enough. But if that person then goes around predicting my imminent demise, or in this case of this thread your assertion that we'll all shoot ourselves in the leg, then I take issue.

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Lol, You and I can pick sides on this all day long. But when It comes down to it, you get the light striker fired gun and I will choose the smooth double action. And for me, I do train on a regular basis, and I can shoot a DAO every bit as well or better than a light trigger. In fact, have trained with a DAO for so long, actually do worse shooting a Light Trigger.

You make all kinds of debate that your trigger is as safe as a DAO, sorry not only the Physics but the mechanics say NO it is not.

But the bottom line is this. Better your Leg or Life than mine. Go for it, get the light Striker fired trigger. I will heed the caution. Most especially when to go with the light trigger gives me no benefit at all.
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Old May 19, 2019, 06:54 AM   #48
OhioGuy
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
Lol, You and I can pick sides on this all day long. But when It comes down to it, you get the light striker fired gun and I will choose the smooth double action. And for me, I do train on a regular basis, and I can shoot a DAO every bit as well or better than a light trigger. In fact, have trained with a DAO for so long, actually do worse shooting a Light Trigger.

You make all kinds of debate that your trigger is as safe as a DAO, sorry not only the Physics but the mechanics say NO it is not.

But the bottom line is this. Better your Leg or Life than mine. Go for it, get the light Striker fired trigger. I will heed the caution. Most especially when to go with the light trigger gives me no benefit at all.
I apologize if you already stated above, but what model(s) of DAO pistols do you specifically prefer for carry? What small (say, single stack) do you recommend? I haven't shot many DAO triggers really, but those I have shot -- Kahr, Beretta Pico which I own, Sig P250 were actually quite smooth and not nearly as heavy as the first pull on many DA/SA guns.

I feel confident carrying my Walther PPS most of the time, and that exposed striker pin does give some margin (or the illusion of it at least!) of safety when holstering. It's also the only model currently offered with a red dot, and I'm a red dot geek so it all works out.
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Old May 19, 2019, 07:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
Lol, You and I can pick sides on this all day long. But when It comes down to it, you get the light striker fired gun and I will choose the smooth double action. And for me, I do train on a regular basis, and I can shoot a DAO every bit as well or better than a light trigger. In fact, have trained with a DAO for so long, actually do worse shooting a Light Trigger.



You make all kinds of debate that your trigger is as safe as a DAO, sorry not only the Physics but the mechanics say NO it is not.



But the bottom line is this. Better your Leg or Life than mine. Go for it, get the light Striker fired trigger. I will heed the caution. Most especially when to go with the light trigger gives me no benefit at all.
Again, I don't care what you choose. I only care about people spreading misinformation. The mechanics I mentioned which you then allude to are those as they relate to a striker fired pistol unmodified and at rest. I'm not sure if you missed that part or chose to conveniently ignore it. If your argument is one trigger requires more force or travel to go off, sure. My point is that alone doesn't guarantee safety. Your constant anticipation of harm for members of this forum is really endearing. I guess you're just the Cassandra of our time.

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Old May 19, 2019, 09:33 AM   #50
Carl the Floor Walker
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TunnelVision I mean TunnelRat (just kidding) I think we just need to agree to disagree and move on. I will be at the range as usual and having a great time, and I wish you the same.
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