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Old March 19, 2019, 01:09 PM   #26
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Old March 19, 2019, 03:17 PM   #27
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  1. All firearms are loaded
  2. Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire
  4. Be sure of your target and beyond
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Old March 19, 2019, 04:00 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by totaldla View Post
  1. All firearms are loaded
  2. Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire
  4. Be sure of your target and beyond
Not trying to be snarky -- is a 4:00 carrier willing to destroy the person in line behind them at Wal-Mart when they bend over to pick something up?

Willing to shoot through the seat of the car when driving?

I think there's a certain amount of reasonable interpretation involved here, namely, never to let the muzzle of an unholstered gun cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

I believe it's generally good practice to move, add, remove the holster from your belt together with the gun whenever possible, so that the gun never has to be handled. In fact this is one of the reasons that I *do* carry AIWB. I have to frequently move it from my belt, to a safe in the car, and back again as I go to various enlightened locations that are protected from criminals by sheets of "Gun Free" paper.

I never take the gun out of the holster, and it's far easier to do this with something like a Vedder Light Tuck at AIWB than a 2-clip holster behind your hip. Even a single clip holster like the Vedder is a chore to put on and off the belt behind you while seated in a car.

I would argue that any position that makes it possible to handle a loaded gun as little as possible, is safer overall.

That's just my belief. One of many reasons that so many of us do carry AIWB.
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Old March 19, 2019, 04:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by totaldla View Post
  1. All firearms are loaded
  2. Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire
  4. Be sure of your target and beyond
OhioGuy is right: That doesn’t apply to a gun that’s properly secured in a quality holster. Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to step over your dog or cat when carrying a gun on your belt, you wouldn’t be able to use most shoulder holsters, you wouldn’t be able to bend over when hip carrying, and SWAT cops and operators couldn’t sit down when carrying with a drop holster. Heck, by that logic you wouldn’t even be able to go to the second floor of your house when people are downstairs if you’re carrying a gun anywhere on your belt.
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Old March 19, 2019, 04:20 PM   #30
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Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to step over your dog or cat when carrying a gun on your belt, you wouldn’t be able to use most shoulder holsters, you wouldn’t be able to bend over when hip carrying, and SWAT cops and operators couldn’t sit down when carrying with a drop holster. Heck, by that logic you wouldn’t even be able to go to the second floor of your house when people are downstairs if you’re carrying a gun anywhere on your belt.
The first applies to people carrying AIWB and people carrying at 4 o'clock (and I do make an effort not to step over my dogs but around them when I carry). The others can be legitimate concerns. It's one reason I bend at the knees and not the waist (though my holster doesn't cant remotely enough to shoot someone outside of arm's distance when I bend at the waist). It's one reason I'm mindful of carrying in an upstairs floor (I use a high ready rather than a low ready in the upper floor my two story dwelling). It's one reason I wouldn't shoulder holster carry for holsters that have the pistol horizontal. There are limits to how much any person can manage a muzzle in a given environment, but we do the utmost to keep it oriented in the direction that minimizes the danger to persons and property.

The rest position of the muzzle when carrying appendix is different than when carrying at 4 o'clock. It just is. Does that mean it shouldn't be done? No, but at some level you have to acknowledge the difference. It's part of the reason we have people here saying they don't recommend carrying AIWB for newer shooters. To me it's an added level of risk that has to be acknowledged. Now there are other areas where 4 o'clock carry has different forms of risk, many of which are advantages of AIWB. But we accept all the differences and all the risks or we're just telling ourselves what we want to hear.
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Old March 19, 2019, 04:48 PM   #31
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The rest position of the muzzle when carrying appendix is different than when carrying at 4 o'clock. It just is. Does that mean it shouldn't be done? No, but at some level you have to acknowledge the difference. It's part of the reason we have people here saying they don't recommend carrying AIWB for newer shooters. To me it's an added level of risk that has to be acknowledged. Now there are other areas where 4 o'clock carry has different forms of risk, many of which are advantages of AIWB. But we accept all the differences and all the risks or we're just telling ourselves what we want to hear.
I fully acknowledge that AIWB carries a greater risk than other forms of carry to people who aren’t experience and skilled with proper gun handling. However, that’s not because of where the gun is pointed while it’s secured in the holster, it’s due to the risk of someone with poor gun handling skills shooting themself during the draw or the reholstering process and where he might shoot himself; shooting yourself in the hip or the behind is sure better than shooting yourself in the femoral artery.
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Old March 19, 2019, 04:54 PM   #32
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However, that’s not because of where the gun is pointed while it’s secured in the holster, it’s due to the risk of someone with poor gun handling skills shooting themself during the draw or the reholstering process and where he might shoot himself; shooting yourself in the hip or the behind is sure better than shooting yourself in the femoral artery.
I'd disagree that the direction of the muzzle at rest isn't of importance.

Quote:
OhioGuy is right: That doesn’t apply to a gun that’s properly secured in a quality holster.
Would you take a loaded pistol that is in a holster and point the muzzle directly at another person, simply because it was in a holster? Or would you still exercise a level of caution? To me muzzle discipline does still apply even when carrying in a holster. Yes there are limitations in that carrying results in a muzzle pointed somewhere, but that doesn't mean muzzle discipline is immediately no longer of concern simply from being in a holster, imo.

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Old March 19, 2019, 05:23 PM   #33
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Would you take a loaded pistol that is in a holster and point the muzzle directly at another person, simply because it was in a holster? Or would you still exercise a level of caution?
You make a good point, maybe I should have worded that differently. No, I wouldn’t do that; and yes, I would still exercise a level of caution. That said, it wouldn’t be the same as if I did it with an unholstered firearm.

It is virtually impossible for a quality handgun to discharge when secured in a quality holster; the main danger of carrying isn’t when the gun is in the holster but instead it’s when it’s going in or coming out. And because of that we treat holstered guns differently than unholstered guns. If we didn’t, then all the normal carry situations I mentioned in post #29 would be unacceptable, not just AIWB carry.

I’ll ask you a version of your question: Would you feel the same if a police officer sat down across from you wearing a drop holster as you would if he drew his gun and pointed it at you?
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Old March 19, 2019, 05:36 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by OhioGuy

Not trying to be snarky -- is a 4:00 carrier willing to destroy the person in line behind them at Wal-Mart when they bend over to pick something up?
Sorry, my bad - I was attempting to poke fun at appendix carry since most of the time it sure looks like the muzzle is covering important stuff.

The 4'o-clock IWB position with a few deqrees of forward cant is my favorite.
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Old March 19, 2019, 06:45 PM   #35
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You make a good point, maybe I should have worded that differently. No, I wouldn’t do that; and yes, I would still exercise a level of caution. That said, it wouldn’t be the same as if I did it with an unholstered firearm.



It is virtually impossible for a quality handgun to discharge when secured in a quality holster; the main danger of carrying isn’t when the gun is in the holster but instead it’s when it’s going in or coming out. And because of that we treat holstered guns differently than unholstered guns. If we didn’t, then all the normal carry situations I mentioned in post #29 would be unacceptable, not just AIWB carry.



I’ll ask you a version of your question: Would you feel the same if a police officer sat down across from you wearing a drop holster as you would if he drew his gun and pointed it at you?
No I wouldn't, but notice my comparison didn't involve the firearm unholstered because that isn't the question here. We're comparing two methods of carry in a holster. I agree that a firearm that is unholstered is more susceptible to outside interference than one that is holstered, that seems obvious. But as I have given examples above even when a firearm is holstered I'm still mindful of the muzzle.

I acknowledged above that there are limitations in carrying and preventing a firearm from ever sweeping a person with the muzzle based on the situation. But those limitations don't mean I abandon attempts to deal with those situations. In your example above, if someone sat down across from me with a holstered firearm pointed at me I would change my seat.

I don't doubt that the probability of the firearm discharging by mechanical failure with the internal safeties is very small, I've said as much in other threads, and certainly less than the risk of a person firing an errant round. But it is a potential risk, even if very slight. And for me it's not a risk I feel I have to or is worth it to take. I fully acknowledge others feel differently. My point from the beginning was that dismissing someone pointing out that AIWB involves a firearm pointed at a critical area of your body is to me unfair.

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Old March 19, 2019, 07:41 PM   #36
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Fair enough. I think we don’t really disagree all that much, we’re just each taking a slightly different position on a spectrum.
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Old March 19, 2019, 07:45 PM   #37
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Agreed.

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Old March 19, 2019, 08:23 PM   #38
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So neophyte question does AIWB only apply to appendix? As I am looking at different holster configurations some brands seem to indicate AIWB is for appendix while others more geared to other carry positions.
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Old March 19, 2019, 08:28 PM   #39
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You can use an AIWB holster at other positions. Depending on the design of the holster some of those holsters may not be as comfortable as other IWB holsters, but a concealment wing for example could still be of benefit at other positions. I'm not sure how well the angled wedges work at other positions as I've never had a holster with one.

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Old March 19, 2019, 09:38 PM   #40
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I've made leather IWB holsters for myself as well as friends. For 3-4 o'clock position, the FBI cant or more seems to work better to hide the grip. Where as the AIWB, the straight drop seems to hide the grip better, keeping it parallel to the belt line.

Then there is a trade off to concealment vs. draw, because the lower position to the belt hides better, but is harder to get an initial master grip. The higher position one can get a master grip immediately, but might print a little more.

This seems to be true for both AIWB and strong side carry.
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Old March 19, 2019, 10:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by rcollier View Post
So neophyte question does AIWB only apply to appendix? As I am looking at different holster configurations some brands seem to indicate AIWB is for appendix while others more geared to other carry positions.
Just to be clear, the “A” in “AIWB” stands for “appendix” (not trying to be insulting at all, it’s just not clear from your post that you’re aware of this). So, in theory, any holster marketed as AIWB should be primarily intended for appendix carry.

Like HighValleyRanch pointed out, most (if not all) of AIWB holsters are designed without a cant (or are adjustable to not have a cant). So any IWB holster without a cant (or that can be adjusted to not have a cant) can be used for AIWB carry. But some work better than others. Often a holster specifically designed for AIWB will also have the ability to adjust the ride height of the holster. And many will have an optional “claw” or “wing” add-on that has been previously discussed (or have one built-in like on the Tenicor Velo). And a few have a “bump” or “wedge” add-on that has also been previously discussed (or have one built in like on the Velo).

Like TunnelRat pointed out, an AIWB holster can be worn elsewhere, but if it’s not able to be adjusted to have a cant it will be less concealable for many people if worn behind the hip. And I’ve never seen anyone try wearing (or tried wearing myself) an appendix holster with a wing and/or a bump anywhere but in the appendix position, so I’m not sure how well that would work. But every AIWB holster I’ve seen with a wing was designed to have the wing contact the belt when worn without any cant, so if you were able to adjust he holster to be canted and you wore the holster behind the hip the wing wouldn’t work as well. And the bump is designed to fit in the space in your pelvis right next to your genitals, so it would probably be uncomfortable using it behind the hip.
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Old March 19, 2019, 10:14 PM   #42
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I carry 3 o'clock with a straight cant holster. I find it faster. I'm also carrying a Glock this way and the natural angle of the grip sort of helps.
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Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
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Old March 20, 2019, 05:18 AM   #43
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I personally find the Vedder Light Tuck holster with the claw attachment to be useful at any position. Straight drop if worn AIWB, fully canted if worn around 4:00. Dedicated AIWB holsters without adjustments can be worn at 4:00 also, and the claws definitely aid concealment, but the cant makes them easier to draw from behind the hip.
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Old March 20, 2019, 12:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Theohazard View Post
Just to be clear, the “A” in “AIWB” stands for “appendix” (not trying to be insulting at all, it’s just not clear from your post that you’re aware of this). So, in theory, any holster marketed as AIWB should be primarily intended for appendix carry.

Like HighValleyRanch pointed out, most (if not all) of AIWB holsters are designed without a cant (or are adjustable to not have a cant). So any IWB holster without a cant (or that can be adjusted to not have a cant) can be used for AIWB carry. But some work better than others. Often a holster specifically designed for AIWB will also have the ability to adjust the ride height of the holster. And many will have an optional “claw” or “wing” add-on that has been previously discussed (or have one built-in like on the Tenicor Velo). And a few have a “bump” or “wedge” add-on that has also been previously discussed (or have one built in like on the Velo).

Like TunnelRat pointed out, an AIWB holster can be worn elsewhere, but if it’s not able to be adjusted to have a cant it will be less concealable for many people if worn behind the hip. And I’ve never seen anyone try wearing (or tried wearing myself) an appendix holster with a wing and/or a bump anywhere but in the appendix position, so I’m not sure how well that would work. But every AIWB holster I’ve seen with a wing was designed to have the wing contact the belt when worn without any cant, so if you were able to adjust he holster to be canted and you wore the holster behind the hip the wing wouldn’t work as well. And the bump is designed to fit in the space in your pelvis right next to your genitals, so it would probably be uncomfortable using it behind the hip.
Not insulted at all. I was not sure what the A meant AIWB vs IWB
Thanks.
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Old March 20, 2019, 06:29 PM   #45
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I think there are arguments FOR and AGAINST either carry method.

The one thing I've not seen addressed in this sort of discussion is what happens, if you don't have time to clear the holster, and using EITHER approach, you are struggling to control the weapon and keep it out of your attacker's hands?

Appendix carry lets you use TWO HANDS when trying to retain the weapon more easily, but it also put the battle zone for that struggle near the femoral arteries.

The 4 o'clock carry only lets you easily use one hand, but you can twist and turn in the "retention" battle until you can get your other hand free to help, without as easily having the gun cover a vital area.

With either carry method the holster and the garment can be tugged to a different position, so where the struggle starts isn't necessarily where it will end.

Has anyone here actually done any retention training using either or both carry methods?
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Old March 20, 2019, 06:51 PM   #46
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You are assuming in the above that you see the threat about to happen. The trouble with 4 o'clock and further ASOB, is that you might never see that the attacker has noticed your weapon printing and is coming up behind you to grab the weapon. He gets you immediately into a choke hold, and is grabbing your weapon. You will not have two hands to defend.

While I have not had much firearms force on force training, I've had years of martial arts training.
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Old March 20, 2019, 07:33 PM   #47
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Quote:
The one thing I've not seen addressed in this sort of discussion is what happens, if you don't have time to clear the holster, and using EITHER approach, you are struggling to control the weapon and keep it out of your attacker's hands?
Walt, see post #19
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Old March 20, 2019, 07:44 PM   #48
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Walt, see post #19
and see post #9!
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Old March 20, 2019, 08:28 PM   #49
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You are assuming in the above that you see the threat about to happen. The trouble with 4 o'clock and further ASOB, is that you might never see that the attacker has noticed your weapon printing and is coming up behind you to grab the weapon. He gets you immediately into a choke hold, and is grabbing your weapon. You will not have two hands to defend.

While I have not had much firearms force on force training, I've had years of martial arts training.
In the situation you just described, grabbed unaware from behind and being put in a choke hold, I don't think going for your pistol, appendix or otherwise, is the best course of action at that point. I don't think that was your point, it's just an observation. There are also retention techniques for hip carry.

As far as printing is concerned, I think there are a number of situations where appendix has advantages in that area. But I don't think not carrying appendix is a guarantee that you will print just as carrying appendix isn't a guarantee that you won't print. Either way it's a system that needs work. Threats can also come from the front as well as behind. A fight can start as something else and evolve into a gun grab attempt where you may be facing the attacker.

I did an afternoon where we defended from and tried gun grabs using cleared pistols in people's holsters. I did find that hip carry had one advantage in that if you were in a scuffle where someone came at you from the front you could turn the firearm away from the attacker. Sometimes this was enough to still get the pistol drawn. For people carrying appendix sometimes they would get compressed and have a hard time. I did find though that shorter barreled pistols carried appendix could usually be drawn fast enough to mitigate the issue if you were practiced.

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Old March 21, 2019, 10:34 AM   #50
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RE: see post #19 and see post #9.

I saw assertions and claims in those posts but no proofs. The assertions cited in #9 and #19, and those PROs and CONs may be correct.

That said, I'd like to hear from people who have ACTUALLY tried (as was the case with TUNNEL RAT's reply above) both method in some sort of real-life or classroom/training simulations. I suspect there are more CONs to both methods than listed in earlier responses.

I'm not taking sides in this discussion, but simply trying to learn. I don't know enough about AWIB, yet.

I sometimes pocket carry, and realize that this method can really be a problem (especially if sitting) unless my hand is already grasping the gun in the pocket holster when I'm ready to present the weapon -- but I never see that disadvantage addressed by pocket-carry advocates.

Situational awareness is, of course, the key defense in any self-defense event, but I'm not sure that everybody's "RADAR" is always 100% effective.

What techniques are most effective when defending against attempts by an attacker to take the weapons away BEFORE it is removed from the carry position, when the attacker is trying to take the weapon from the defender, or when the attacker is trying to keep the weapon in the holster/carry position while continuing the attack?

If you're on the ground (or on your way there), during an early part of the altercation -- ending up on your back or your belly, or curled up in a fetal position to minimize the effect of blows -- bringing your weapon to bear can be more or less difficult, depending on carry method.

Arm movement may be easier with AWIB when starting from a seated position than 4 o'clock, and actually getting your hand on your weapon might be less obvious with AWIB carry, too. But getting the gun into play may be more difficult than with 4 o'clock carry once your hand is on it if you must remain seated and you're in a restaurant, at a table, etc. With either method, I'm sure you can move in ways that will ease the draw.

Does anyone teach retention methods for AWIB? Or do most instructors consider it a too-risky method to teach in a classroom environment?
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