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February 12, 2019, 08:28 AM | #1 |
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Can anyone interpret this sign???
Saw this on the window of a bar in Ohio:
WARNING!!! IF YOU ARE CARRYING A FIREARM Under the statues of Ohio, if you possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code, you may be guilty of a felony and are subject to a term of actual incarceration of one to two years. What the heck does that mean? Has the Ohio seal and John Kasich's name. To the best of my knowledge, you are only committing a crime if you are consuming alcohol while carrying a firearm, regardless of where that alcohol is being consumed. You "MAY" be guilty of a felony? Subject to *actual* incarceration? As opposed to...pretend incarceration? Being sent to time out? Sitting in the naughty chair? Does this sign actually mean anything, or is it intended to scare people off who are otherwise legitimately carrying a firearm? Like anyone is going to look up and read the Ohio Revised Code while standing outside the bar |
February 12, 2019, 09:56 AM | #2 |
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Someone probably meant to say “no guns.”
They tried to say “since this is a bar, we should not have to say it but ‘no guns’.” What they ended up saying was “If we have a D permit, you may or may not be committing a felony by having a firearm in the bar room. In any case, you can hang out in our bathrooms with your guns. We are not lawyers or even have the spine to tell you our wishes for our premesises. Please come in and ask to see our “D Oermit” and ask the owner for the name of the lawyer that wrote this sign, so you can get a better one in the future” |
February 12, 2019, 09:56 AM | #3 |
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That is a fair summary of part A of Chapter 2923.121 of Ohio Revised Codes.
Part B is somewhat more detailed.
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February 12, 2019, 10:57 AM | #4 | |
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So nobody can carry a firearm in a liquor establishment except the following list of exempt people, which includes police officers or...
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Would this statue then prohibit open carry? Either way, I think I agree with the comment above: this is a very slippery-worded sign that seems intended to scare away people who are legitimately carrying, but without actually prohibiting firearms. Are such establishments required to post these signs? I would imagine if the owners actually wanted to prohibit carry, they'd just post a sign saying so. A bar owner voluntarily posting a vaguely worded pile of legalese doesn't make sense to me... |
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February 12, 2019, 11:47 AM | #5 |
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Not hard to understand at all unless you're illiterate. Other states have the same signs posted in bars and nightclubs.
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February 12, 2019, 02:55 PM | #6 | |
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I don't know anything about Ohio law, by the way, but any private establishment reserves the right to ban firearms on their premises unless there's a law that says it can't. These guys just let you know that it's the government's choice, not necessarily their own.
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February 12, 2019, 03:16 PM | #7 |
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How is someone supposed to know what class of permit the store has? The sign doesn't actually say.
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February 12, 2019, 03:30 PM | #8 |
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I'd infer that "any room in which liquor is being dispensed on premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code" translates to "a place with a liquor license."
Moreover, it should be intuitively obvious that any bar displaying such a sign falls under the statute (context speaks volumes). So here's what the sign really says: "It's a felony to bring a gun in here."
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February 12, 2019, 03:35 PM | #9 | ||
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It's not a great sign, and it's not a great law, but it does let you go to dinner with your friends if you follow the rules and don't drink. Ohio's concealed carry laws get more liberal with time, but as you can see from the effective dates of the amendments in the link above, they are a bit of a moving target. Quote:
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February 12, 2019, 03:36 PM | #10 | |
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Thats not the case at all. |
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February 12, 2019, 03:43 PM | #11 | |
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February 12, 2019, 03:45 PM | #12 |
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"D Permit" refers to the establishment's liquor license. In other words, "you can't bring a gun into a place with a liquor license" ... or, better yet ... "no guns in a bar!" There may be exceptions, but unless you're a cop, I'd assume you better not walk in there with a Glock 17 on your hip.
I don't see how that's not clear.
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February 12, 2019, 03:54 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
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February 12, 2019, 03:55 PM | #14 | |
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They can, of course, post a sign prohibiting concealed carry like any other business, but that is not what the sign the OP referred to says. |
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February 12, 2019, 03:59 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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February 12, 2019, 06:02 PM | #16 | ||
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If there's a D permit, logic would suggest that there must be at least an A, B, and C permit and that if carry is prohibited only in establishments with a D permit, it's probably legal in places with an A, B or C permit. Further, the sign says you "may" be guilty of a felony -- which means that you also may not be guilty of a felony. How can you decide, based on the information provided by the sign? I don't find this sign to be at all useful. It's very informative -- in a highly technical way -- but not at all useful. |
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February 12, 2019, 07:11 PM | #17 |
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You can carry in a restaurant that serves liquor but can't carry in a bar that serves food.
The problem with signs is that there are no "official" signs that you can just order. Many make up their own with verbiage that is not easily understood. Nobody needs to know the permit status of an establishment they wander into. It was foolish to include that on the sign. Besides, it is the responsibility of the person carrying to know and understand the laws, not that of the establishments they frequent. |
February 12, 2019, 07:48 PM | #18 | |
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First point, you aren't "guilty" until convicted in court. So, the sign says "may be guilty" Second, the sign deliberately doesn't address those circumstances where you are legally allowed, at all. SO, again, "may be guilty" UNLESS those unnamed circumstances apply to you. The "in any room where liquor is dispensed" in the licensed establishment allows you to carry in the Denny's dining room, but you MAY be guilty if you do it in the lounge (bar). In short, yes, its misleading at a glance, and doesn't mention anything about carry under circumstances were you wouldn't be guilty of violating the law, leaving a casual reader with the impression that there aren't any, which is not the case. Or so it seems to me...
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February 12, 2019, 09:41 PM | #19 |
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The sign obviously lacks simplicity and clarity, and isn't written in casual English. It's caused confusion here, yet it's written in a manner similar to statutes. Little wonder many people often don't know the law. Good for the legal profession I suppose.
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February 12, 2019, 10:30 PM | #20 |
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Fair point. There's a very good chance the sign was written by -- or at least reviewed by -- the establishment's legal counsel.
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February 12, 2019, 10:45 PM | #21 |
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I've seen that sign....... at a eatery in.... the Cleveland airport!!
That's right! In the no-gun zone, beyond security! The stupidity is astounding... |
February 13, 2019, 06:58 AM | #22 |
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The lawyers defend the sign, while normal people point out it is obtuse and confusing.
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February 13, 2019, 07:31 AM | #23 |
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And, there are some people that do not pay attention to signs.
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February 13, 2019, 12:26 PM | #24 | |
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February 13, 2019, 05:51 PM | #25 |
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Wow, this sure generated a comment or two
To clarify two points raised above: I'm neither illiterate nor defiant. But thanks for the kind words. As others have pointed out, it appears this sign really conveys no useful information at all. Reading the actual laws, anyone with a valid CCW is NOT committing a crime if they aren't drinking, and IS committing a crime if they are. I don't believe it has to be in a liquor establishment, as it's against the law to consume any alcohol, in any venue, while carrying a firearm. So to me the question then becomes "why did they post it at all?" and my theories would include: 1. They're required by law to post it -- possible because this was not just a made-up sign, but one that had the state seal and the names of the Gov and Lt Gov on it -- I've not seen it anywhere else, so maybe it varies by county or city? 2. The owner meant to post a "no guns" sign and thinks this sign conveys the "no guns allowed" message when in fact, it does not 3. It's posted to scare people into not carrying, even if they have a legal right to, but stops short of actually posting a "no guns" sign -- I'd say this is very unlikely because I can't imagine why someone would be passive aggressive and not just post the familiar sign (which I'd argue comes in three flavors: No Revolvers, No Berettas, or No Glocks). Thanks for the discussion! I'll now go back to defying laws I can't read anyway |
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