opinions on bolt rifle for brush gun. - Page 3

A pause for the COZ · May 14, 2017, 10:49 PM

Since I do quite a bit of Brush bustin. I have a few Brush guns.

Ruger American in 300 black Out. this one will get a can as soon as the law changes.

AR15 Carbine in 300 black out. 30-30 marlin, Marlin model 1941 in 32 win special.

AR15 in 7.62x39

AR10 in 308win

Mosin Nagant 91-30 turned into a brush gun.

Pretty sure I have more around here some were. I guess I dont like limits.

bamaranger · May 14, 2017, 11:05 PM

I've seen the video, previously, and again for this post. Sure you can argue it.

In the first place, 3 shots is not much of a sample pool. Shoot 3 more and you might get entirely different results. Shoot 30, I'm interested, 300 and I'm beginning to believe.

Next, the numbers the fella did use were not that convincing. He got a hit with .22lr, he got a hit with .308, does that mean they are equal brush cartridges? Of course not. So why is two hits with a .444 all that more of a "result"? Did he get 3 hits with anything?

And why did he shoot the light calibers first, and the heavies later? Isn't it entirely possible that he thinned some brush near the target face when shooting the smaller cartridges, that allowed the heavies to do (one hit) better?

Also, that was a forgiving target, I'd think taller than any average whitetail from spine to belly. ...I'd argue that some of his hits would have been under a deer, or wounding at worst. Few of the hits were actually centered, if that was indeed his aiming point. I'd wager if he put up a 12x12" " plate, more representative of a kill zone, and still a bit big, he'd have missed with near everything.

One thing you can't argue is that a shorter, lighter rifle is easier to carry and easier to manage in close quarters like a blind, tree stand, or shooting house.

One consideration for a "brush rifle" is fast repeat shots. For a bolt rifle and fast repeat shots, consider an oversize bolt handle. Savage sells an oversize handle that will bolt on many of their models. Gunsmithing will allow big knobs on other rifles too. There is also a rubber gadget that will go over the knob of most standard bolts.

Gunplummer · May 15, 2017, 11:16 AM

There is no argument. For years all we heard was that any little twig would deflect a bullet. You think that .22 cleared off that branch?

Don Fischer · May 15, 2017, 12:05 PM

I do three shot group's to find a load. Could do them all the time, wouldn't matter. The most import and best shot you'll get is the first one! Three shots into 1/2" and 5 into 1". Still very good hunting load!

**44 AMP** · May 16, 2017, 11:33 PM

My first deer rifle was a Remington Model 600 in .308 Win. Hunted in the Adirondacks. If there's a better bolt gun for the woods, I never found it. I've collected 600 series rifles in .222Rem, .243 Win, 6mm Rem, .308Win, and .350 Rem Mag. Not tack drivers after they warm up, and they warm up fast, but so what? They were never meant to be.

A word of caution, they are light, and in the bigger calibers, you get just a BIT of recoil.

Sea Buck · May 18, 2017, 11:56 AM

Ruger M77 RSI. 2-7X Leupold scope on 2x mostly, and 30.06 180 gr BT. Light, handy, quick and plenty of punch. Always know your target and never shoot through brush.

ThomasT · May 20, 2017, 05:04 PM

Its sorta funny so many mentioned a brush gun has to be short and light weight. Me included. But the original woods hunters way back in the 1700s on through the 1800s used flintlock muzzle loaders that were close to 5 feet long and weighed 8 pounds or more. Sometimes a lot more. And they hunted in some pretty wooly woods. And they killed piles of deer, elk and buffalo (yes there were buffalo in the eastern woods) and kept themselves well fed with meat and paid taxes with deer skins.

dgludwig · May 20, 2017, 06:01 PM

Quote:

But the original woods hunters way back in the 1700s on through the 1800s used flintlock muzzle loaders that were close to 5 feet long and weighed 8 pounds or more. Sometimes a lot more.

It might help to explain they didn't have any other options. I'm sure if they did, a Marlin Model 336 or Savage Model 99 or their ilk would have been the "brush" gun of choice.

ThomasT · May 20, 2017, 07:42 PM

Maybe so. But they made do with what they had. Two hundred years from now hunters may laugh at what we consider cutting edge right now. Its all about perspective I suppose.

And I don't think it needs explaining. I bet everyone here knows already.

A lot of people, me included like to hunt with old style guns just to add a little more challenge to the hunt. At one time I considered hunting with a spear. I have had several deer walk right in front of me in my ground blind. I thought with a spear I could dash out and stick 'em in the ribs. But I waited too long. I don't dash anywhere anymore.

fourbore · May 21, 2017, 07:09 AM

Quote:

I've seen the video, previously, and again for this post. Sure you can argue it.

In the first place, 3 shots is not much of a sample pool. Shoot 3 more and you might get entirely different results. Shoot 30, I'm interested, 300 and I'm beginning to believe.

Next, the numbers the fella did use were not that convincing. He got a hit with .22lr, he got a hit with .308, does that mean they are equal brush cartridges? Of course not. So why is two hits with a .444 all that more of a "result"? Did he get 3 hits with anything?

And why did he shoot the light calibers first, and the heavies later? Isn't it entirely possible that he thinned some brush near the target face when shooting the smaller cartridges, that allowed the heavies to do (one hit) better?

He showed where bullets actually struck branches and then hit the target. he also explained the near missed vs missed by a two feet & tumbled results. It is the difference between having made up one mind in advance or watching and listening. How can you be critical of the test and not even recall the details?

The 577 Snyder HIT ALL THREE times with significant damage to bushes. The 45/70 hit twice but made a small group of all three shots at the lower left corner of the plate. Basically 3 hits, no tumbles. Most of his hits averaged a bit low and left and appears to be his off hand 50 yard aiming error or target acquisition error. Although the 577 group was a little better centered. The 577 was a clear winner, and with plenty of damaged limbs.

If I am not mistaken both the 22 and 223 individual that hit had tumbed and hit sideways. The 223 and 308 had a lot of tumbling, all 6 shots.

This is an interesting discussion. It is too bad the OP derailed himself by calling the 450 a brush rifle and set off a crap storm, all-be-it an interesting crap storm. I was hoping to hear some experience with the American in 450. Its an interesting gun that reminds me of the Siamese Mausers that were sold in the past. I missed the boat to Siam. These Rugers are low cost enough to be a fun purchase and more practical with a scope. I dont really care for the 450, but what the heck.

The Ruger web sight says the brakes can be removed and replaced with a cap. Both provided. That allows the option for pleasant practice and testing and protecting your hearing when in the field with a thread protector.

If/when suppressors become deregulated, I hope to see mini products that take the edge off without having the bulk of full blown devices. That is the whole reason for the new law, hearing protections.

Gun Blast did a review, as usual no bench rest shooting.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-AmericanRR450BM.htm

drive_sideways · June 16, 2017, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripnbst

https://youtu.be/P5dve7vAY9I

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This makes me happy I just purchased a 45/70 Marlin 1895G since where I hunt it's thick brush and most shots will occur at literally 50 yards max

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BoogieMan · June 17, 2017, 05:59 PM

Quote:

It is undeniable that round nose "lever action type" bullets are deflected less than pointy "bolt action type" bullets. Heavier weight helps too.

Common myth. All bullets are easily deflected by hitting leaves, branches, grass, rain, etc..

dgludwig · June 17, 2017, 06:58 PM

[QUOTE]Quote:
It is undeniable that round nose "lever action type" bullets are deflected less than pointy "bolt action type" bullets. Heavier weight helps too.

Quote:

:
Common myth. All bullets are easily deflected by hitting leaves, branches, grass, rain, etc.

It would seem obvious that "all bullets are easily deflected by hitting leaves, branches, grass, rain, etc."; deer flies for that matter, but the question still might be "are some bullets (caliber, weight, profile, configuration, velocity., etc.) less prone to deflect than others"? I'm not sure if this question can ever be answered definitively given the variables of the test "materials", distances, angles, wet or dry surfaces, ad infinitum in terms of what "brush" means and what it might consist of.

**44 AMP** · June 18, 2017, 02:52 PM

Shooting through brush??

Shape matters, some. MASS matters MORE.

Which do you think you can more easily throw through a bush, a ping pong ball, or a golf ball? Same shape, similar size, very dissimilar mass.

Mass matters more. The more massive the object, the less it will deflect.

The principle is sound, the details are "fiddly bits".

the possum · June 18, 2017, 04:38 PM

If they added a Civil War artillery piece to the test, does anyone think an eight pound cannon ball would be deflected by the brush? I don't. I think this proves that momentum does play a part, so the theory holds. An object with more momentum will want to continue in a straighter line. The issue is whether there's enough difference to really matter in the real world, because no one's gonna hunt deer with a .50 BMG or a .17 HMR, so there's no point comparing them. I doubt there's enough difference amongst all the common deer calibers to matter- I wouldn't rely on any of 'em to bust brush.

I do recall reading an article about a guy's experiences hunting African game with a .700 Nitro Express. He said it had so much power to spare he noticed he was getting sloppy with his shots. He dropped a Cape Buffalo on the spot, after the bullet drilled straight through a 10" Ebony tree.

drive_sideways · June 18, 2017, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoogieMan

Common myth. All bullets are easily deflected by hitting leaves, branches, grass, rain, etc..

Did u watch the above video?
While all bullets have a chance to be deflected, a heavy round or flat nose bullet is far less likely to.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

May 14, 2017, 10:49 PM	#51
A pause for the COZ Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Braham, Minnesota Posts: 1,314	Since I do quite a bit of Brush bustin. I have a few Brush guns. Ruger American in 300 black Out. this one will get a can as soon as the law changes. AR15 Carbine in 300 black out. 30-30 marlin, Marlin model 1941 in 32 win special. AR15 in 7.62x39 AR10 in 308win Mosin Nagant 91-30 turned into a brush gun. Pretty sure I have more around here some were. I guess I dont like limits. __________________ NRA life member. US Army veteran, 11 Bravo.

May 14, 2017, 11:05 PM	#52
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	argument I've seen the video, previously, and again for this post. Sure you can argue it. In the first place, 3 shots is not much of a sample pool. Shoot 3 more and you might get entirely different results. Shoot 30, I'm interested, 300 and I'm beginning to believe. Next, the numbers the fella did use were not that convincing. He got a hit with .22lr, he got a hit with .308, does that mean they are equal brush cartridges? Of course not. So why is two hits with a .444 all that more of a "result"? Did he get 3 hits with anything? And why did he shoot the light calibers first, and the heavies later? Isn't it entirely possible that he thinned some brush near the target face when shooting the smaller cartridges, that allowed the heavies to do (one hit) better? Also, that was a forgiving target, I'd think taller than any average whitetail from spine to belly. ...I'd argue that some of his hits would have been under a deer, or wounding at worst. Few of the hits were actually centered, if that was indeed his aiming point. I'd wager if he put up a 12x12" " plate, more representative of a kill zone, and still a bit big, he'd have missed with near everything. One thing you can't argue is that a shorter, lighter rifle is easier to carry and easier to manage in close quarters like a blind, tree stand, or shooting house. One consideration for a "brush rifle" is fast repeat shots. For a bolt rifle and fast repeat shots, consider an oversize bolt handle. Savage sells an oversize handle that will bolt on many of their models. Gunsmithing will allow big knobs on other rifles too. There is also a rubber gadget that will go over the knob of most standard bolts.

May 16, 2017, 11:33 PM	#55
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	My first deer rifle was a Remington Model 600 in .308 Win. Hunted in the Adirondacks. If there's a better bolt gun for the woods, I never found it. I've collected 600 series rifles in .222Rem, .243 Win, 6mm Rem, .308Win, and .350 Rem Mag. Not tack drivers after they warm up, and they warm up fast, but so what? They were never meant to be. A word of caution, they are light, and in the bigger calibers, you get just a BIT of recoil. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 18, 2017, 02:52 PM	#64
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Shooting through brush?? Shape matters, some. MASS matters MORE. Which do you think you can more easily throw through a bush, a ping pong ball, or a golf ball? Same shape, similar size, very dissimilar mass. Mass matters more. The more massive the object, the less it will deflect. The principle is sound, the details are "fiddly bits". __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 15, 2017, 11:16 AM	#53
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	There is no argument. For years all we heard was that any little twig would deflect a bullet. You think that .22 cleared off that branch?

May 15, 2017, 12:05 PM	#54
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I do three shot group's to find a load. Could do them all the time, wouldn't matter. The most import and best shot you'll get is the first one! Three shots into 1/2" and 5 into 1". Still very good hunting load!

May 18, 2017, 11:56 AM	#56
Sea Buck Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: New England,Florida Snow Bird Posts: 312	Ruger M77 RSI. 2-7X Leupold scope on 2x mostly, and 30.06 180 gr BT. Light, handy, quick and plenty of punch. Always know your target and never shoot through brush.

May 20, 2017, 05:04 PM	#57
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Its sorta funny so many mentioned a brush gun has to be short and light weight. Me included. But the original woods hunters way back in the 1700s on through the 1800s used flintlock muzzle loaders that were close to 5 feet long and weighed 8 pounds or more. Sometimes a lot more. And they hunted in some pretty wooly woods. And they killed piles of deer, elk and buffalo (yes there were buffalo in the eastern woods) and kept themselves well fed with meat and paid taxes with deer skins.

May 20, 2017, 07:42 PM	#59
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Maybe so. But they made do with what they had. Two hundred years from now hunters may laugh at what we consider cutting edge right now. Its all about perspective I suppose. And I don't think it needs explaining. I bet everyone here knows already. A lot of people, me included like to hunt with old style guns just to add a little more challenge to the hunt. At one time I considered hunting with a spear. I have had several deer walk right in front of me in my ground blind. I thought with a spear I could dash out and stick 'em in the ribs. But I waited too long. I don't dash anywhere anymore.

June 18, 2017, 04:38 PM	#65
the possum Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2004 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 555	If they added a Civil War artillery piece to the test, does anyone think an eight pound cannon ball would be deflected by the brush? I don't. I think this proves that momentum does play a part, so the theory holds. An object with more momentum will want to continue in a straighter line. The issue is whether there's enough difference to really matter in the real world, because no one's gonna hunt deer with a .50 BMG or a .17 HMR, so there's no point comparing them. I doubt there's enough difference amongst all the common deer calibers to matter- I wouldn't rely on any of 'em to bust brush. I do recall reading an article about a guy's experiences hunting African game with a .700 Nitro Express. He said it had so much power to spare he noticed he was getting sloppy with his shots. He dropped a Cape Buffalo on the spot, after the bullet drilled straight through a 10" Ebony tree.