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Old August 10, 2019, 07:41 PM   #76
zxcvbob
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Sorry, but if I am ion the scenario, I am getting me and mine out of harm's way and out of the area. I am not engaging an active shooter.
You have the right plan but sometimes, if you're unlucky enough that day, the way out is forward. Don't rule out any possibilities ahead-of-time.
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Old August 10, 2019, 08:46 PM   #77
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The only way I’m engaging the shooter is if he’s between me and the exit, or if he happens to walk past with his back to me and I’m cut off.

I’m not a cop. I don’t even pretend to be. Someone made a comment about being a coward for not defending innocent lives, but I’m going to turn that on it’s head. If those innocent lives had wanted to be protected they should have brought their own gun. Once I have my family out I’m not going back in and squander my incredible luck at not being killed in the first wave.
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Old August 11, 2019, 07:31 AM   #78
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I guess my short answer is I don't know. Not sure anyone does until they are in that situation.

We train ,we practice ,we prepare, but decisions have to be made in seconds.

Would I run toward gunfire no. Would I return fire if cornered by shooter I would like to think so . Do I engage a shooter with a superior weapon? Depends on the situation. If standing by an exit would I run ? YES as fast as my old legs could go.
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Old August 11, 2019, 09:17 AM   #79
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When I was sworn, I'd would be obligated to run to the gunfire. I'm retired now.

My first obligation is the safety of the family. It's too easy to be mistaken for the shooter and be shot by another CCW or the police. Now, if I had no choice, I'd do my best to take out the shooter.
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Old August 11, 2019, 09:22 AM   #80
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The only way I’m engaging the shooter is if he’s between me and the exit, or if he happens to walk past with his back to me and I’m cut off.

I’m not a cop. I don’t even pretend to be. Someone made a comment about being a coward for not defending innocent lives, but I’m going to turn that on it’s head. If those innocent lives had wanted to be protected they should have brought their own gun. Once I have my family out I’m not going back in and squander my incredible luck at not being killed in the first wave.
Exactly
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Old August 11, 2019, 11:19 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by lunger View Post
I guess my short answer is I don't know. Not sure anyone does until they are in that situation.

We train ,we practice ,we prepare, but decisions have to be made in seconds.

Would I run toward gunfire no. Would I return fire if cornered by shooter I would like to think so . Do I engage a shooter with a superior weapon? Depends on the situation. If standing by an exit would I run ? YES as fast as my old legs could go.
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Old August 11, 2019, 04:25 PM   #82
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Can you stop it? Probably not, since as a civilian you are limited until someone acts, then your brain has to recognize that it wasn’t a firework and that nightmares are real. Then you only have to locate and identify the shooter(s) in an environment that may have multiple CHLs, preferably without getting shot yourself.

If (Kipling) you can do these things, you won’t stop the shooting but you may save countless lives. Limiting the shooters freedom of action quickly is the biggest factor.
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Old August 11, 2019, 05:23 PM   #83
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One thing I think is missing from reports of these tragic mass shootings is perspective:

"What are the chances of dying in a 'mass shooting'?"

"What are the chances of dying in an auto accident?"

"What are the chances of dying of a heart attack?"

"What are the chances of dying in a plane crash?"

"What are the chances of being hit by lightning?"
True, that would question why even carry a firearm, when there are so many other ways of dying.
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Old August 11, 2019, 06:50 PM   #84
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I do the best I can to be prepared to protect myself and those in my charge. I am committed to that. I don't know if I could stop a mass shooting. I think my chance of doing so successfully is low in most circumstances, but my reaction would be entirely based on the situation at hand. My hope is to do what needs to be done whether that is fight, hide or run. I think that is as good as I can hope for.

Quote:
True, that would question why even carry a firearm, when there are so many other ways of dying.
manta49 after considerable research I have calculated the chance of dying at 100%. I carry a firearm, maintain my vehicles, make regular doctors visits, and many other things to give myself the best chance of living to the fullest.
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Old August 11, 2019, 07:08 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mata49
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One thing I think is missing from reports of these tragic mass shootings is perspective:

"What are the chances of dying in a 'mass shooting'?"

"What are the chances of dying in an auto accident?"

"What are the chances of dying of a heart attack?"

"What are the chances of dying in a plane crash?"

"What are the chances of being hit by lightning?"
True, that would question why even carry a firearm, when there are so many other ways of dying.
Logical error.

Your conclusion is exactly the same as saying "I don't need a fire extinguisher in my kitchen because I'm more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than I am to die in a kitchen fire."
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Old August 11, 2019, 10:02 PM   #86
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I have said a lot here. I'll go back the the original question if I haven't addressed it already.

no. I couldn't have stopped that without God and every other higher power on my side. I would have lived with survivor's guilt for the rest of my life, just as I do for the tornado that actually killed one of the women that I would have given up almost everything I had to date and then marry. I couldn't stop it, and couldn't even help in relief duty beyond helping my only daughter. I was on site within minutes, and cleared a street, but the heat and humidity hit my asthma to the point that I had to be driven home. I was afraid to go out again. AFRAID. I am kicking myself every time I think about it. But then, it was too late anyway. By the time my crisis had passed there was nothing left to do but pick up debris.
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Old August 12, 2019, 01:10 AM   #87
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Brian you and I are on the same wavelength. But I don’t bash people for not making an effort if they just don’t have the comfort/confidence or self preservation kicks in. I’m just tired of the “you’ll be mistaken by cops as the shooter,” “you’ll be sued if you’re successful in stopping the attack,” “you should just be a good witness,” or “you’ll shoot your eye out kid” responses we get sometimes. Those arguments absolutely apply in many cases. Those are also things that operational risk analysis can easily accommodate for when someone is killing mothers holding their nursing infants in Walmart. Oh, there’s a 5% chance a cop might show up while this guy is still actively shooting, I see him and he’s not focused on me, and I have the equipment and ability to stand a decent chance of ending this... but should hunker down and face outward or run away because the cops might think I’m the shooter in the off chance they show up as I’m closing the distance to engage him. Or I may get sued. I do not apologize for personally thinking that these thoughts shouldn’t be in our purview in that situation.
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Old August 12, 2019, 05:07 AM   #88
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I think I posted here? But if not, my feelings are always the same. If walking with my Wife. 50/50 chance. Left-arm around her. Heading away from the sound of gunshots.
Closest exit, alarm sound door or not.
On my own, call 911 blue ant earpiece. No need to touch phone. Head towards the sound of gunfire. Open shirt, leave Glock 43X holstered. Have spare 10 round magazine on the belt. Try to see shooter, shoot him in the back. If possible. No more threat, holster.
Holster with reload. Keep communicating with the Police.
All the stats lean towards a single shooter. Hope for the best. Never been in a Gunfight, but dozens of physical ones.
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Old August 12, 2019, 07:07 AM   #89
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Being semi retired from LE I am past the point that I am going to actively hunt down a criminal. I carry a fullsize Glock and shoot it competitively, so my skills and abilities with my carry gun are not a concern. My duty is to my family, if they are with me they are my concern, I will get them and anyone around us to safety.

As has been stated, every situation is different, you need different plans for different scenario's and the ability to shift on the fly.

This is why I have been an opponent to open carry, especially of rifles and shotguns. seeing someone carry a rifle into any venue should normally set off all kinds of alarms. Like the clown in Missouri, he deserves to go to jail, for aggravated stupid if nothing else.

First aid skills are a must, I was an NREMT for 12 years and have gone to several additional trauma classes since then.
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Old August 12, 2019, 07:11 AM   #90
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Logical error.

Your conclusion is exactly the same as saying "I don't need a fire extinguisher in my kitchen because I'm more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than I am to die in a kitchen fire."
Not only that, but it sucks when you are the statistical outlier. People forget how "averages" are determined.
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Old August 12, 2019, 07:24 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Not only that, but it sucks when you are the statistical outlier. People forget how "averages" are determined.
I see this comment a lot. Averages are averages. There's nothing tricky about them and they don't need quotation marks. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will happen, hence probability. Most of us have finite time and money to prepare for what the world can throw at us. How we choose to spend that is our business, but if someone is spending all their time and money preparing for a mass shooter while driving around not wearing a seatbelt or ignoring their personal health than I personally think they're being a bit illogical.

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Old August 12, 2019, 07:29 AM   #92
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As has been stated, every situation is different, you need different plans for different scenario's and the ability to shift on the fly.
This may be true but a general consideration of the goal is a good idea. For instance is your goal to engage the shooter, even if that means looking for the shooter(s), or is your goal to retreat only engaging the shooter(s) if doing so is necessary to allow your retreat? Who are you willing to stop to defend if they are unable to retreat?

Yes tactics have to be fluid but having made tough decisions, and preferably rehearsed them, is important. "I don't know until it happens" may be true but if it is used as an avoidance mechanism to considering the question for yourself it may also result in failure to do something in a time when it is important to do something.
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Old August 12, 2019, 08:00 AM   #93
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I've been around more than one shooting and been shot at once; my first instinct was always run as fast as I could to good cover (I was not carrying, either).
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Old August 12, 2019, 09:58 AM   #94
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I've thought about this a lot given that I'm from Dayton, have lived here for most of my life, and had driven down the very same stretch of road in the Oregon District where there the murders occurred barely 24 hours before it happened. Someone I work with lives in an apartment around the corner from Ned Pepper's bar. I know the layouts, and where things are.

The police response was swift and decisive, and fast. Part of me is amazed that this shooter chose that area. It's always heavily patrolled by police and everyone knows it. From the POV of someone wanting to inflict damage, it's a terrible choice. Hell the El Paso shooter even said he was specifically avoiding the hard targets where he'd be taken down quickly.

The police response kind of shows two things. First, it's true that only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns. Second, that multiple good guys with all kinds of guns, radios and centralized dispatch can stop a bad guy in under 60 seconds, and 9 people are still dead with 20-something more wounded, and some very seriously.

Could you or I have stopped this shooter? It's pure speculation. This a-hole was not only toting a weapon far more powerful than anyone can carry concealed, he was sporting some kind of body armor also. People can make jokes about calibers all day long, but quite likely nobody with a pistol could have stopped this attacker without a precise head shot, during complete chaos, with innocents running in every direction, and the cost of a miss being life-or-death. As armed citizens we don't operate in teams, we aren't the horn with a dispatcher or each other. And none of us are on duty to charge toward a live shooter -- thank God none of the responding officers was shot. I don't know if they were even shot at. But any of them could have been killed on that street before the shooter went down. If Joe Citizen is present at the scene with his family, then charging out to fight back may be his best option to keep them safe, even if only to slow down the attacker until more firepower arrives. Joe is probably willing to die for that. If Joe's family is home asleep and he's out for sandwich with his friends, his best move for protecting his family is to escape or shelter and stay alive so he's still there for them in the morning.

Anyways, even if Rob Pincus had been there on the scene, I have to realistically assess that his chances of stopping or affecting this outcome at roughly zero. Too many variables, too much chaos, too many unknowns, and the real cavalry was already there in less than 30 seconds raining gunfire down on the killer. One guy with a Glock 43 isn't going to add much unless he'd been *right there* at the moment it broke out, had a clear shot, and wasn't standing in the line of fire.

Maybe I'm pessimistic but that's just how it seems to me.
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Old August 12, 2019, 09:59 AM   #95
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Maybe.
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Old August 12, 2019, 01:49 PM   #96
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To many variables, its possible someone could stop a shooting. But the sensible thing to do would be head for the exits, and only take on the shooter if you have no other choice.

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Old August 12, 2019, 04:47 PM   #97
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I think the right answer is to only engage from a clearly advantageous position, or to find safety ASAP. Too many wannabe "heroes".

There's a saying in boxing that applies here as well.

Everyone has a plan till they get hit, or in this case till some nutjob happens to be actively firing on the scene.
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Old August 12, 2019, 05:58 PM   #98
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This may be true but a general consideration of the goal is a good idea. For instance is your goal to engage the shooter, even if that means looking for the shooter(s), or is your goal to retreat only engaging the shooter(s) if doing so is necessary to allow your retreat? Who are you willing to stop to defend if they are unable to retreat?
Did you read anything else I wrote? I already answered that question.
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Old August 12, 2019, 05:59 PM   #99
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I've been around more than one shooting and been shot at once; my first instinct was always run as fact as I could to good cover (I was not carrying, either).
That is always a good idea.... Incoming fire has the right of way.
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Old August 12, 2019, 06:24 PM   #100
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Could you or I have stopped this shooter? It's pure speculation.
Not really, the evidence shows that once confronted mass shooters stop killing innocents.

Quote:
This a-hole was not only toting a weapon far more powerful than anyone can carry concealed, he was sporting some kind of body armor also
.

Magnum revolvers are just as powerful as the 5.56 fired from a short barrel, especially the 44 magnum. I carried a magnum revolver for decades. It is not for everyone.

Quote:
People can make jokes about calibers all day long, but quite likely nobody with a pistol could have stopped this attacker without a precise head shot, during complete chaos, with innocents running in every direction, and the cost of a miss being life-or-death.
The cost of a miss is frequently life or death, as is the cost of inaction. Many of us preach to master your pistol, know it and your limitations.

Quote:
As armed citizens we don't operate in teams, we aren't the horn with a dispatcher or each other.
That is one of the risks of intervention.

Quote:
If Joe Citizen is present at the scene with his family, then charging out to fight back may be his best option to keep them safe, even if only to slow down the attacker until more firepower arrives.
Maybe take a precise shot, charging a gunman is a last resort.

Quote:
Anyways, even if Rob Pincus had been there on the scene, I have to realistically assess that his chances of stopping or affecting this outcome at roughly zero. Too many variables, too much chaos, too many unknowns, and the real cavalry was already there in less than 30 seconds raining gunfire down on the killer. One guy with a Glock 43 isn't going to add much unless he'd been *right there* at the moment it broke out, had a clear shot, and wasn't standing in the line of fire.
The facts contradict that.

Quote:
Maybe I'm pessimistic but that's just how it seems to me.
I think you are, it is a natural reaction.

The off duty cop at the draw mohamed contest took out two AK armed attackers with a Glock 21 while firing on the move aggressively.
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