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April 13, 2019, 10:37 PM | #1 |
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Wolves in Washington, what to expect?
As the title implies, I have some questions about wolves. I attended a department of fish and wildlife training today. One of the topics was the wolf packs of our state. The discussion brought out some very passionate and negative remarks. I would prefer that we keep this friendly, and not turn it into an argument. If you feel the need to to vent about state policies or laws you don't agree with, please don't respond. I want this to be about observed changes in wildlife.
My first question is how many of you have seen wolves in your hunting areas? Second question, have you noticed a significant decline in deer and elk population? Wolves have made an amazing recovery since the first few were released in Yellowstone Park. Wolves we're not released in Washington. All of our packs moved in from other areas or were born here. They are spreading rather rapidly here. The first successful breeding pair was documented in 2009. We now have at least 126 wolves. I am just wondering what to expect in my hunting area when the wolves start sharing my herds.
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April 14, 2019, 06:38 AM | #2 |
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We have no wolves that i'm aware of in PA. Coyotes, yes.
And i've seen how deer react to them vs bear. Looks like cockroaches with the lights go on when coyotes are around. Bears, they keep a respectful distance. As far as wolves out west, you may want to ask the people at Hunt Talk. www.hunttalk.com And i can probably tell you what their reaction will be. Somewhere close to kill em all! Just say'n.
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April 14, 2019, 07:18 AM | #3 | |
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April 14, 2019, 07:22 AM | #4 |
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There are states that have a wolf season. I do believe Idaho is 1 that is very close to you..
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April 14, 2019, 07:43 AM | #5 |
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Several Western States have seasons. Wolves recover quickly among large ungulate populations.
Wolves we're reintroduced to Yellowstone in the late 80's or early 90's. They were delisted from the endangered species a few years ago. I am not particularly interested in hunting wolves in other states, as I figure it will not be long before I can get a tag locally. The east half of Washington is already delisted by the federal endangered species. The state has not yet determined that a need for population control exists, and has not removed them from the state endangered species list. But it won't take long with the current rate of expansion. In 10 years there are 15 times as many breeding pair of wolves. And went from 1 recognized pack to 26.
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April 14, 2019, 08:26 AM | #6 |
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I live Co.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/05/...-grand-county/ Kremmling is about 80 miles south Wy border. https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/wy...ing-war-wolves Any livestock here killed by predator is paid fair market value and money comes for DOW.
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April 14, 2019, 09:14 AM | #7 |
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I have had a horse severely mauled by wolves right on my land only 150 yards from my home. I saved the horse,but for the first week I was fairly sure I would not.
I see wolves nearly every time I go out in several areas where I hunt deer, elk and sometimes antelope. The state and the federal governments are the ones cooperation to bring them to your area. So the idea that you can go to them and ask them to help is parallel to a 1940 Jew asking the Gestapo to help counter the actions of the SS. Free men understand they are in charge of their governments. Slaved understand their government is their owner. The battle ground is for your mind. Your actions follow your mind. You mind doesn't follow your actions. |
April 14, 2019, 10:51 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
I do not have a dog in that fight...but it would seem that getting paid for loosing livestock to wolves may be problematic. |
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April 14, 2019, 11:08 AM | #9 | |||
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April 14, 2019, 01:18 PM | #10 |
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Livestock losses
Game animal numbers plummeting Shorter hunting seasons Prosecution of anyone "mistaking" a wolf for a large coyote Animal rights people overwhelming the state game management decisions to favor the wolves |
April 14, 2019, 02:20 PM | #11 |
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Here in Mn the wolves are a huge problem.
We have well over 3000 in the state and are still protected by the endangered spiecies list. According to the original agreement they should have been delisted when the population got to 1400. We had 2 seasons some years back and the anti hunters brought a suit and won and got them delisted again. Last year the wolves killed 7 of my beef cows and calves. I farm on the open prairie east of Fargo, No Dak. About 150 miles from the wolf habitat of the northern forest. I am not even allowed to shoot a wolf if I see them eating my stock. There also is no depredation fund to even partially pay for my loss. We call a federal warden, they come out look at the dead cow, agree that it’s a wolf problem. They send the government trapper out with a live trap to catch a wolf. The deer population has dropped considerably, the moose population is gone. Even the predators, coyotes, Fox, raccoon nothing left. It skunks. As you deal with these wolves it won’t be long and you will learn that problem will not be the policy of your state FSU and game Dept. It will be the feds policy in Washington DC that the problems come from. I am not an advocate on annialateing the wolf, they belong in a wilderness habitat and all animals need a place to live and exist. They should not be in populated areas and around livestock. They need to be controlled. The state of Minnesota has proven they can control the wolf. When they were delisted there were less than 500 in the state. They brought them back to the target population of 1400. The feds said no delisting. 5 years ago they finally delisted.We had 2 seasons and wanted to and did kill 250 wolves a year. We had almost 3500 wolves in the state. The packs would have had no problems regenerating there population. But anti- hunters and big money brought suit in Washington DC won and delisted them again and still being delisted. It gotten to be a terrible political issue. When this all started, like you, I wanted to look at it positively. Now I can’t find anything positive about it. I hope it works out better for your situation. Good Luck and you are going to need a lot of it to keep it positive
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April 14, 2019, 06:31 PM | #12 |
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"Last year the wolves killed 7 of my beef cows and calves. I farm on the open prairie east of Fargo, No Dak. About 150 miles from the wolf habitat of the northern forest. I am not even allowed to shoot a wolf if I see them eating my stock. "
You're more tolerant than I would be. |
April 14, 2019, 11:21 PM | #13 |
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I live in WA as well. The first things you notice when wolves move in is a lower fawn-doe ratio. Not because the does are not having young, but the depredation rate for small animals increases dramatically whenever larger predators increase. Livestock depredation and small domestic animals are the next on the menu. Same as we've seen with coyote increasing.
Don't mean to sound like a "kill 'em all" kind of guy, but there is a reason wolves were eliminated in the 1800s. Pioneers had a hard enough time raising enough to feed and raise their families without feeding wolves as well. Sooner or later you have to eliminate the load on the people who raise food.
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April 15, 2019, 03:42 AM | #14 |
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I hunt in a wolf area in Northern Michigan. I didn't really notice much problems with small numbers. Back in the 90's I did shoot a deer with a bow and by the time I found it was just shredded hair. That was 2 hours later.
My dads a member of U.P. Whitetails and he said one of the guys 2 miles from where we hunt had 29 deer they were feeding and 22 were killed by wolves and left in the field. That was last week. A few years ago my cousin watched a cow get killed by a wolf in the parking lot of the dairy farm. The DNR arrived but didn't do anything. Eventually that year the state issued tags to shoot a few in a specific areas. http://www.timberwolfinformation.org...-still-swirls/
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April 15, 2019, 08:05 AM | #15 | |
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My thoughts are that wolves will be somewhat more effective hunters than cougars. We have about 3,000 statewide. Each cat takes 1- 1.3 deer on average every week. That is the statistics from a radio collared study performed in Washington several years ago. I haven't heard what the actual rate is for wolves, but I have heard suggestions that they take 1 deer every 2 days per wolf. If we get to 3,000 wolves in the state, I believe our hunting seasons will disappear.... I am trying to get an idea how much of a difference wolves will make overall.
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April 15, 2019, 08:26 AM | #16 |
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Here in MN grays were introduced to this State back in the early 70s. DNR says currently 2600 Grays inhabit this state. Old school hunters and those folks whom live in the North woods I know. Most believe the count is near 8 thousand (some say even more.)
Seldom see big Northern County deer anymore. 6 pt average 8 pt trophy. A hunter these days has to work hard to harvest one because food plots are no longer promising.~ a waste of time & money now since MN wolves were again listed as endangered species. Wolves eat everything and won't leave a area till everything warm blooded on the ground has been devoured or packs become over populated. "That's what they do" Have I seen Grays up close? Oh Yes. Quite a few times walking in my woods. Had two 60 pound dogs stalking me & growling off to my side. I was partridge hunting at the time quietly walking down a old skidder road. Having enough. A shot from my 3" 410 w/ 7-1/2 shot to a ham at 20 yrds changed it's/ their bad behaviour. When Still hunting late one misty afternoon. I had a pack of Grays pass close by me chasing a wounded deer just a snarling and snapping at its heels. Heard em coming someways away. First thing that came to mind? I knew I had 3 rounds in the rifle I quickly check the count of spare cartridges I had in my coat pocket. 2-only. No place to hide no tree to climb. "I stood my ground and said a Hail Mary as they passed by. When you hear those dogs chasing up close to you. I guarantee they'll cause a shiver and the hair on the back of one's neck to stand tall. Many promote Grays are afraid of humans/ being introverted like.. From what I seen and/or encountered. I whole heartily disagree. One reason not. They'll come to your door so to steal or seduce your dog for their lunch no matter its size. That's how bold those animals are. I only know them to be a smart stone cold viscous killer of things having a heart beat. No human should ever turn his/her back too. Good luck to you big al hunter. |
April 15, 2019, 12:05 PM | #17 |
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Any decline in deer and elk population isn't caused by wolves. It's caused by habitat loss. Predators are proven to be good for deer populations.
https://www.conservationnw.org/our-w...ife/gray-wolf/
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April 15, 2019, 01:58 PM | #18 |
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The only good thing I have read about wolves lately is that they all died on Isle Royale and the DNR thought the preditor prey dynamic was upset with the 1500 moose. So they imported 4. During the recent government shut down one of the wolves decided to cross lake superior and go back home.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...la/2790996002/
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April 16, 2019, 05:53 AM | #19 | |
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April 16, 2019, 07:57 AM | #20 |
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In Wisconsin the biggest threat to the deer populations, especially in northern Wisconsin is black bear. Fawns are their number one food source in the spring. While I believe wolves have a place in any successful ecosystem, they, because of man and their domestic animals, need to have their numbers controlled. Problem without some form of control is before Ma Nature balances things out, the wolves will have to decimate their food supply. In areas where there is a high density of deer/elk and access for hunting is low or unavailable, wolves can be a boon to the local ecosystem. Allowed to get into numbers too high and allowed to loose their fear of man...they become a problem. Of course many hunters don't like wolves because they are in competition with them for game. When it was a matter of survival, eliminating wolves somewhat made sense. Now that it's a matter of sport hunting, most hunters have gotten so they don't enjoy a good difficult hunt. Read posts here. OMG! "Food plots and bait do not work as well anymore!"
I grew up in an area where deer populations were much lower and success rates were quite a bit lower. It was a thrill to get a deer back in the 50/60s, any deer. Now, iffin one don't home with a ten point in the back of the truck every time, they're disappointed. Mostly because we have artificially inflated the deer population. Not because it's healthy for the deer and the ecosystem, bit because it makes it much easier for everyone to shoot one. |
April 16, 2019, 09:40 AM | #21 |
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There are wolves in PA, btw...Golden Wolves. I was lucky enough to see one when backpacking at Kizua
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April 17, 2019, 02:19 AM | #22 |
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I had seen on several occassions, tracks that looked a fair bit larger than a coyote.
Wasn't till today that i had heard from co workers that we have wolves in the state.
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April 17, 2019, 02:44 PM | #23 | |
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I would say we have a healthy population of game here, but not as abundant as some areas. We have a 1 deer per year limit, and about 1 in 6 hunters is successful annually. We are not overrun with deer. Cougar and bear already account for a large part of game mortality, so wolves would be cutting into the breeding stock or the surplus that hunters take. If the dept of fish and wildlife has anything to do with it, the breeding stock will be saved and hunting by people will be severely reduced.
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April 17, 2019, 05:07 PM | #24 | ||
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When there are too few predators the prey breed, and eat out their food supply, after which most starve to death, a few sick and weak may survive until the food supply recovers. Or, they may all die. The same thing happens with predators, if there's too many, they eat all the food, and most starve and die. When prey numbers recover, then so do the predators. And so it swings back and forth, back and forth. Nature is a stable state system, but that system is a series of peaks and valleys, NOT a steady straight line., Quote:
Buffalo wolves, the last remaining 40 or so (back then) in existence. Not in the wild, though, in a compound to ensure their survival. Saw them when I was a small boy, big wolves, maybe taller than I was at the time. Can no longer remember the exactly where but I do remember it was in PA.
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April 17, 2019, 05:47 PM | #25 |
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The problem with wolves is all the research on them never includes human hunters as natural predators. I'm certain humans have been killing wolves since the discovered the means to do so, and when hunting seasons and bag limits are set a law suit comes down with an injunction to stop the hunts. This upsets the balance that could be established, instead of allowing wolves to breed unchecked and decimate local game pr drive them out.
I know as a ranching family on the plains of SE Colorado, it'll be awhile until wolves make it to my families ranch. However, I can tell you they won't be a welcome addition to the ecosystem if we can't protect our livestock without fear of the Federal or State slapping us with a fine or prison. If we are allowed to manage wolves at the local level, I think the outcome would be more harmonious than most of us would ever think possible.
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