The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 13, 2019, 02:51 AM   #1
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,392
Lawful carry citizens as targets

A radio newscast I just heard inspired this.

First,I support the LEO's.I'm grateful for what they do. I think,that IF I did have the courage to be a cop,I'd probably degenerate from the amount of crap I received every day from "good" citizens.
I'm not here to bash cops.This is about ANY armed person,including cops,who sees another armed person as a target.

Actualy,the story that inspired me is about cops shot by "friendly fire"

Two cops observe what they think is a man with a gun in his hand.I don't know details,but the cops open fire on this individual. Both of these cops were hit by "friendly fire" of some sort.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

There are many regional and environmental attitudes about the armed citizen.In some places,armed citizens and LEOs can comfortably sit side by side and have a donut and coffee.

In some places,or for some individuals,the assumption is only two kinds of people are armed. The police,and the people who are criminals that should probably be shot. The non cop with a gun is assumed to be a target. OK,that is a bit extreme,but t makes my point.

A lot more states allow concealed or open carry.A lot more folks,law abiding folks,are carrying. Last time I checked,over 8000 in my county. Probably more,now.

I realize,I'm conscious,that a visible or out of holster handgun makes me a potential target via bad guys,other civilians carrying,and LEOs. OK,its dangerous to be seen with a gun in your hand.Critical point to be aware of.

I'm suggesting more training emphasis on NOT SHOOTING the lawfully armed citizen. More training on " We have 24,000 lawfully armed good citizens in this city.We need to be aware not every gun is in the hand of a killer"


End of rant.
HiBC is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 06:51 AM   #2
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 937
I agree with you in principle, but wonder about how you would train a cop -- or anyone for that matter -- to tell the difference between "good intent" and "ill intent" other than to not automatically jump to the conclusion that anyone carrying a gun is automatically a likely criminal. Does your scenario about out-of-holster guns just apply to scenes in which shooting has already happened?

I ask because I can't imagine many scenarios in which lawfully armed citizens would ever have their guns drawn in the first place. So if someone has a gun drawn and is NOT a criminal, they're probably in fear for their lives and are responding to a threat.

In this scenario, how can anyone -- again, LE or civilian -- tell the difference? Bob takes up a position of cover and observes the scene. Five people are running for exits with drawn guns. They all look scared as hell and may panicking. None are calmly responding they way they might at a shooting range drill. Which is which?

Now say one of them is observed to be firing. At whom? And why? Is he the threat, or is he defending his (or someone else's, maybe even Bob's) life from the threat?

Now if Bob is an armed citizen and can survive whatever's going on by remaining hidden, I think most trainers would advise that he do exactly that. Leave his gun holstered, wait it out, and/or escape at the first possible opportunity.

But if Bob is actually Officer Bob, then his purpose isn't to avoid or escape, but to find and engage and stop a threat. If all he has to go on is "Shots fired -- suspect wearing jeans and has hair" then what is he to do if he sees multiple people with guns drawn? I can't think of any way to figure that out. Maybe the one-in-five in shaggy clothing and tattoos everywhere is the criminal -- or maybe he's a legally armed citizen who runs a tattoo parlor.

That's one reason why so many trainers, including all I've ever paid, advise that your weapon remains concealed until there's no recourse left for escape or avoidance. Rob Pincus makes the point all the time -- LE can't tell who's who, so keep that thing hidden (literally "keep it in your pants!") and get out of Dodge.

I realize that sounds like a typical argument that anti-gunners use against CCW entirely, but we have to admit there is some logic to it.

Anyways I'm not taking issue with your point, especially that the attitude that Gun = Criminal and "only LE should ever be armed" has to end and be trained out of everyone. If there is a way to train LE to not automatically make that assumption, it should be done -- and I don't know whether it is, or isn't. There ARE criminals who target cops, every traffic stop COULD be the mortal threat, Officer Bob needs to get home to his kids -- under all those conditions, how is he to make any kind of distinction over who is, and who isn't, a threat?
OhioGuy is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 08:06 AM   #3
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,392
Ohio,Good points. I agree,its tough to balance. Hesitation can be fatal.I want cops to go home safe.

I appreciate that you got the point I was trying to make.
HiBC is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 08:16 AM   #4
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Western PA rainforests
Posts: 1,230
Being someone who CC's, I ponder this sort of thing often. As a firearm carrier, how can one consider taking a shot without knowing absolutely what one is shooting at. Engaging a target is a last resort means of survival. My points here apply to legal carrying citizens, not criminals that are targeting "carriers".

HiBC, I don't know the story that you are referring to, but it alarms me that LEO's would open fire on what they "thought" they saw, and not what they "know" they saw. Were they officers in uniform or plain clothes? On duty or off?

Relating to what OhioGuy was saying, I would be inclined to take a position of cover to evaluate if I could escape a situation or if I absolutely had to draw and shoot and also to try and get a clear picture of who was involved and what was happening. Of course all situations are different and this may not be an option. In some situations, a bad guy may be obvious, but I imagine more often, it would be very hard to tell.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 09:29 AM   #5
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,004
I think about this often..the call, 'man with a gun in the mall'...LEO arrives and see a man holding a gun standing over a person on the ground........Yikes. They don't know the guy on the ground was the 'bad guy with a gun', and you standing over him is the 'good guy with a gun'

So, in the very unlikely event I need to use a handgun...when it's 'over', if possible, the gun gets put away and when the LEOs arrive, I stand there with hands in plain view..same if LEOs to my house, gun down, hands in plain view as they come into my house, even tho I'm in my jammies..I think these days, the 'thing' that 'causes' a lot of LEO handgun use is the sight of another handgun..
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 10:07 AM   #6
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,633
The problem is the System of "education" The symptom is (among many others) that cops think they are "the boss". Same with Judges and politicians. In our de Facto government this has become true and it is only reversed now and then by a dedicated litigant, but always after the harm has been done. And only in a small percent of the cases.
Why?

The "conservative element" of our population has not been active. They believe "I pay taxes, so I'll let my hired servants deal with these things"
And deal they do. To our destruction

Remember the words of Washington?
"Government is not eloquence. It is not reason. Government is force! Like fire it is an UNTRUSTWORTHY servant and a fearful master".
We are fools to EVER trust government at ANY level.

We were and are to be "ever vigilant"

If you want to become a medical doctor you must get good grades in Highschool and go to collage to take "Pre-Med" and that will take 2-3 years more. If you get good grades there you may earn a place in Medical school. You then do 4-6 years of schools and if you do well there you may get an opportunity to be an intern at a hospital. If you do well in that internship you are then authorized to make life and death decisions concerning people's lives. So you have to prove your worth in the academics of medicine and prove your worth in the actions associated with that science for YEARS before you are 100% on your own to make life and death decisions.

But a cop who got Cs and Ds in highschool can attend POST academy at 20 years old in most states and get "trained" for between 1 month and 6 months and study LAW ENFORCEMENT" POLICIES with near no actual study of history and law, (Most importantly the history of OUR LAWS) and the reasons the Founders wrote the Bill of Rights. He will be told what the procedures are of investigations and arrests and how the established system wants the reports made out, but have near NO training in the foundations of law, but only needs to be a pawn for politicians and do what he's told. They are given guns and in only after a few months of schooling then told to go force people to obey the politicians.

In MOST cases the cop is a good man or woman at heart, but has no idea that he or she is just being groomed to do the bidding of those that would destroy the Bill of Rights for their own purposes, yet leave their hands clean and if things go bad, it's the Cop that gets the blame.
Ever notice when Cops overstep and try to say it was the job they were taught (and in most cases they are correct) the politicians are not the ones charged with the overreach. How many cops went to jail for treason, armed robbery or grand theft, when they took the guns from the citizens of New Orleans?

How many politicians will go to jail for High Treason when "Red- Flag Laws' result in deaths of both cops and citizens?

None!

George Washington was 100% correct.

You see, this is a symptom.
The PROBLEM is a lack of Education. True and real education!

Sure many have hours and hours of "schooling". But being taught half/truth and even outright lies for 30 years is NOT education.
That's programing! It's brainwashing!

The fault is with US.

WE have not held the education system to the standard we should, and as Cicero said
"Those that will not be involved in their government are ALWAYS ruled by their inferiors."

Last edited by Wyosmith; February 13, 2019 at 10:15 AM.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 10:16 AM   #7
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,392
When I first heard the story that inspired my post,it was sketchy and I was not focused very well.I have since learned the bad guy was involved in a robbery with a fake gun. I do not fault LEO's for shooting someone pointing a fake gun.

I'd expect it. Don't point guns at cops,fake or otherwise.

Unfortunately,one LEO was killed and at least one wounded by "friendly fire",whatever that was.

So,the situation does not quite line up with my post.

Still,its my hope that an increase of awareness of the numbers of lawfully armed citizens be included in LEO training .Simply seeing an armed person SHOULD inspire the Question "Is this an off duty officer? Is this a lawfully armed citizen?" Obviously,if the gun is pointed at the Officer,the situation is greatly escalated. That's not what I'm talking about.

I get it that being visibly armed is hazardous to my health.

Last edited by HiBC; February 13, 2019 at 10:23 AM.
HiBC is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 10:37 AM   #8
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 937
Is this the story?

USA TODAY: Friendly fire kills NYC police detective

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...re/2855682002/

I have to assume that friendly fire came from another police officer, because if it come from and armed citizen the media would be a blaze with people calling for more regulations on concealed carry.
OhioGuy is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 11:36 AM   #9
deadcoyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2009
Location: northern CA
Posts: 597
I can say we discussed this extensively at work a few years back. I just ended a 20 year career working in rural law enforcement but was fortunate to work for a department with a decent training budget so we got sent to a lot of great school in the city in California, where the training is typically better. One of the schools we attended drew a lot of criticisms from rural cops in attendance as it was focused on meeting every sighting of a firearm with lethal force. A lot of people don’t realize how compacted California’s population is and that a large oanount of the state is extremely rural.

We were trying to address with the training hosts how often we encounter people who are legally armed in the rural parts of the state and how it was a poor concept to engage everyone with a gun in an immediate threat manner. I totally appreciate as soon as a gun is introduced you need to control the environment m, but most of the people I run into with guns are just normal people going about their business.
deadcoyote is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 11:59 AM   #10
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadcoyote View Post
I can say we discussed this extensively at work a few years back. I just ended a 20 year career working in rural law enforcement but was fortunate to work for a department with a decent training budget so we got sent to a lot of great school in the city in California, where the training is typically better. One of the schools we attended drew a lot of criticisms from rural cops in attendance as it was focused on meeting every sighting of a firearm with lethal force. A lot of people don’t realize how compacted California’s population is and that a large oanount of the state is extremely rural.

We were trying to address with the training hosts how often we encounter people who are legally armed in the rural parts of the state and how it was a poor concept to engage everyone with a gun in an immediate threat manner. I totally appreciate as soon as a gun is introduced you need to control the environment m, but most of the people I run into with guns are just normal people going about their business.
Thanks for sharing that perspective and experience! I haven't been LE so I want to learn as much as I can from those who are.

What do you think was the underlying reason why the people in crowded urban areas believe that every sighting of a gun should be met with lethal Force?
OhioGuy is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 12:19 PM   #11
deadcoyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2009
Location: northern CA
Posts: 597
I think if you grow up in the mountains or high desert, you’re used to seeing people driving around with guns in their trucks in gun racks, and if you didn’t hunt or grow up with guns you certainly knew people who did and it normalizes the behavior. Subjectively, since I did not grow up in the city, I would say a lot of the cadets and trainees I had who were from the city had no exposure to firearms outside the academy, and saw firearms as items which were utilized by police and criminals. I know that’s kind of oversimplified but it’s essentially what we’re looking at.
deadcoyote is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 08:12 PM   #12
Leaf
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2018
Posts: 198
Make no mistake about it. We need to make a point of being very up-front about it. YES, you make a HUGE target out of yourself when armed and in particular when you've "broken leather" in a crisis situation. Multiply by thousands if shots have already been fired.
Leaf is offline  
Old February 13, 2019, 09:35 PM   #13
rural12
Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2005
Location: Vidalia Ga
Posts: 50
This is the very reason that I will not become involved in any situation in which me or mine are not threatened...regardless. It is too difficult for LE to know who is good and who is bad in a dynamic situation such as a shooting incident. If I am ever involved in a shooting and am blessed to be walking around when the cops arrive...I will not even have a gun on me...I will unload and place my weapon away from me. My main objective is to avoid or remove myself from all hostilities...get in my vehicle and go about my business.
rural12 is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 01:00 AM   #14
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,495
There's just no escaping the reality that if you are on the scene of a shooting/armed robbery that has just happened or is happening and you have a gun in your hand, you are running the risk of being shot.

It happens to police officers on a reasonably regular basis--if there was a way to stop it, you know that they would have by now. It's pretty clear that cops aren't out there trying to kill other cops. But it still happens.

Keep in mind that there's nothing about you that screams: "Don't shoot me, I'm a good guy!" to a cop. You are just a person with a gun on the scene of a crime just committed/being committed with a gun.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 06:53 AM   #15
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,608
The one main item that says you are not a criminal, your handgun is in a holster. Criminals do not carry in holsters.

Once loading timber into the back of my Jeep, outside a Store, I felt a tug on my shirt, pulling it down. Looked back female Deputy walking away, "Thank you" I called. She just waved, carried on walking.

I can not imagine a situation where I would have my Glock in my hand? Draw it to use it, OK. Just walking, or standing with Glock in hand Why?

I have never had anyone spot my concealed pistol, and comment/challenge me.

Working a rush job, for my Sons Company. Panic armed Security, like right now!
We had that Jewellery Store for two months. Close to the Florida Mall.

English Tourists! "My God is that Gun loaded?" "Well yes" On average, they were terrified, male or female. The boys? They wanted to hold it! NOT!
Brit is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 07:22 AM   #16
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,847
Two things I see when dealing with LEO types from the perspective of an armed citizen:
1: cops have literally no "rules of engagement" like our military has--they're allowed to shoot at any "suspected threat" with impunity
2: cops are more worried about "going home at the end of their shift" than they are about violating a citizen's rights or simply murdering an innocent citizen--any one with a gun is a threat even if no no threat is made
Mobuck is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 08:34 AM   #17
Rollcrimp1
Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2019
Location: Where the sun always shines
Posts: 36
LEO Training

Ask yourself this question? How much firearm training do most LEO’s really have? I’m not talking about specialized units, just the average LEO. Most of them learned everything they know agout guns at their respective academies and comply with periodic qualifications that involve for the most part static shooting. Their training in tactical pistol is minimal if at all. Even the K licensed instructors that train these people for the most part have limited training in tactics and gun handling. It’s also true that departments have been revamping their training in response to the mass shootings and that’s a good thing. But the truth of the matter still remains that most LEO’s spend neither the time nor have the resources to garner the skills needed to become accomplished or for that matter even competent pistol handlers in stressful real world scenarios. We see this time and time again and when it happens people and even LEO’s get hurt or die. The sad thing of it is that street cops were never meant to be masters of pistolcraft. Their job is hard enough just keeping bad guys off the streets. But in this day and age the bad guys have evolved and hopefully police departments will evolve with the necessary resources in training and tactics to keep themselves and the citizens they’re sworn to protect safe.
Rollcrimp1 is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 10:07 AM   #18
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
incidents that end in tragic mistakes are rarely due to a lack of or faulty training.

you simply cannot train this into a person. the reactions and thought processes are already ingrained into that person, and to take that a little further, you can't fix stupid.

if a cop has to shoot a teenager who refuses to drop an aimed gun that turns out to be a toy, wth? who's the villain here? Here's a hint. it's the kid who committed de facto suicide by cop.

when an average beat cop has to respond to a vague scenario he hasn't got a hope most of the time of responding with well thought out reactions. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT, ALL THAT MATTERS IS LOOKING BACK AT THE RESULTS AND LAYING BLAME.

what does a mall shooter look like? If a cop responds to a mall shooting and finds what he believes to be a dangerous guy with a gun and people shouting "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!" it's going to hamper his judgement.

You can't train a person to react to a situation that doesn't have enough information or misleading information

If i found one of our filthy redneck long haired freak meth makers beating on a guy who was obviously a bank president, oh, well, am i smart enough or quick enough to realize that it's actually an undercover taking down one of the gambinos? of course not. i'm going to have to act on the situation as it appears to me, or not react at all. Either way is risky. The manager of my hedge fund may die because the meth maker wanted his rolex, the undercover may wind up dead when the second gambino shot him from cover.

So, hey, guys, be careful about shooting an apparent meth head who has a gun pointed at the guy in the hospital scrubs. It may be Doctor crazy with a machete in his pocket and the meth head may just be a farmer who prevented a killing spree.

There is your lesson for today. Should I come back tomorrow and teach you what to do if a crazed 300 pound chimp is eating a woman's face? Here's a hint. When it happened in real life the cop shot the chimp and got in trouble with PETA.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 10:12 AM   #19
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,615
Our "lesson"? Lol. That's fun.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 10:14 AM   #20
Ton
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2014
Posts: 78
Lots of comical/ridiculous posts here that have nothing to do with the actual topic.

Quick math lesson. 325,000,000 U.S. Citizens. 1200 a year killed by LEO average. Even of EVERY SINGLE ONE was a cold blooded murder, you would have a whopping 1 in 270,000 chance every year in getting murdered by police, scary stuff. However that is not the case. Only about 5 LEOs a year are charged with a crime related to a LE killing, which gives you a bone chilling 1 in 65 million chance. ON THE OTHER SIDE, 17,284 people were murdered by non LEO in the US in 2017, which gives you about a 1 in 18,500 chance. Oh and 35,000 US citizens die a year on average in car accidents, 500,000 to heart disease, and 500,000 to cancer. You do the math. So for those who have "experienced" that crazy police bloodlust, you're either the unluckiest people to have ever walked God's green earth, or your "experience" consists of reading on your smart phone about people you've never met in situations you've never been in.

NOW back to the OPs original question. The short answer is that there is no good way to fully negate the risks you are talking about. I've participated in lots of FOF with fully uniformed officers. When the right climate is created ( example two groups of officers, without knowledge of each other, enter a building from different doors searching for an active shooter in the midst of screaming, gunfire, scattering crowds) friendly fire is a common occurrence. Observation and assessment, even for the most trained people in the world, takes time. And in some situations there is no time to be had. A gunman is always steps ahead because he doesn't need to assess, or even really observe.

The best advice I can give to lower the risk is to keep your firearm concealed until it is absolutely necessary, then to return it to concealment immediately when it is safe to do so. You can confront responding officers with your hands in the air and advise them verbally of the situation, but if you come sprinting down a hall gun in hand you probably won't have the chance to do so.
Ton is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 10:16 AM   #21
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,420
To put it very seriously, I don't ever want to be put in the position of making this sort of judgement, to intervene in a secondary event.

In a primary event I will have all available information. It will be me and the guy who is presenting as a threat. I may still have deficient information, but It's all my decision to make based on whatever information he is providing.

If I happen on the second hand event of two people whaling on each other with clubs and all I have is lethal implements, WTH can I do? Nothing. Call for help. Let it play out, interfere if one goes down and the other keeps attacking. I'm going to feel really bad if the loser spends two weeks in a coma and then dies because I couldn't intervene.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 10:26 AM   #22
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,615
My 2 cents. We have had people on this very subforum regale us with tales of how they were glad they were carrying a firearm because of some action someone took that could have been the start of a planned assault, or it could have been nothing. In a number of these cases these people have described how they were a hair's breadth away from killing someone, sometimes with seemingly little remorse as they knew it was what they had to do. I have no issue with people being prepared, taking precautionary measures, and working an OODA loop. But let's be frank. These folks were seconds away from killing people that up until then hadn't even displayed a weapon. So are we really surprised then if a police officer arrives at the scene of a reported shooting, sees someone with a firearm, and shoots that person? I am not.

As to the argument that training can't fix this, I disagree. I have seen firsthand that good training can instill in people a moment's pause to evaluate a situation before reacting. That isn't unnecessary hesitation. It's the step you take before you end a person's life. Now regardless of that, self preservation is ingrained in most of us. At some level when we feel threatened we will react. It's the basis on which the claim of self defense doesn't require you to be beaten within an inch of your life before you react.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 03:04 PM   #23
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
The problem is the System of "education" The symptom is (among many others) that cops think they are "the boss". Same with Judges and politicians....
This has nothing to do with the issue.

The bottom line is this:
  1. As the OP wrote:
    Quote:
    Two cops observe what they think is a man with a gun in his hand.I don't know details,...
  2. But of course the details are vital. Exactly what was going on?

  3. Was the guy with the gun in his hand doing something that could reasonably be interpreted as an imminent lethal threat to one of the cops or a third party? If he was, even if he didn't actually have the intent to hurt anyone, how could anyone tell? We can't read minds and can only infer intent from actions.

  4. Under those circumstances a cop has something like 0.25 to 0.50 second to decide if the guy is a real threat. If the cop takes more time to decide, he'll probably be too far behind the curve to be able to take effective defensive action.

  5. Of course if what the guy was doing could not reasonably interpreted as a threat, the cops overreacted. But we have insufficient information on that point.

  6. In general these sorts of situations unfold very quickly -- whether you're a cop or an armed private citizen.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 04:45 PM   #24
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,639
This subject was discussed when my church got serious about security, after the Texas church shooting. We now have a uniformed officer at each service, but one of the people on the security committee was opposed to us having a protocol to come to his/her aid if a problem developed, because they feared the officer shooting one of us. My answer was that we needed to hope that the officer considered which direction our guns were pointed - at the bad guy or at the officer. Other than that, there really isn't anyway to remove the risk of friendly fire; it is a risk that every thoughtful concealed carrier has to accept. In our situation, the risk has been decreased by having the officers become acquainted with the congregation members by repeatedly drawing duty at our church. But outside of a familiar situation, I see no way to mitigate the risk besides drawing only when absolutely necessary, and then reholstering as soon as any threat has ended. It is entirely possible for an officer, no matter how well intended and well trained, to simply make a mistake in the very fluid situation of a shooting in progress.
TailGator is offline  
Old February 14, 2019, 06:21 PM   #25
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,392
I certainly agree with much of what has been said. We are talking about fractions of a second to make life and death decisions,and a fraction of a second hesitation may cost an officer his/her life.
I'll say it again,I appreciate LEO's,and bashing them is certainly not my intent.

A decade ago,legit concealed carry was far less common.In a significant part of the country,Law Enforcement had something between discomfort to open hostility toward any civilian with a firearm and particularly with concealed carry.

At the same time,here in non'metro Colorado,I have been contacted by LEO's non two occasions when I said (Showing my palms) "Officer,due to this situation ,I have a loaded handgun in my belt"

In both occasions,the LEO was no more excited than he would be if I was another armed LEO. We just finished the interview.


On another occasion,I was going through customs at the Canadian border,pulling my boat behind me.I was going for Walleye and Northerns.Had a cabin booked in Sakatchewan,and paper to prove it.


As the customs officer was checking out the back of my pickup,suddenly she went into crisis mode and I had a gun drawn on me. My offense? In my fishing gear she saw a recycled CCI 22 LR plastic box I was using to hold hooks or snaps or something.

I quit TV,but many of the crime and police dramas portrayed a LEO attitude about a citizen with a gun.It was never good.

What I'm asking for is just a recognition that the lawfully armed citizen is every bit as legitimate as the armed fellow officer is,and deserves to be treated accordingly.
But no,I do not think that means I should run down the aisle of WalMart with my gun in my hand.

I actually watched educational surveillance video of an armed man in what could have been a WalMart,or a JC Penney,Target,etc. He walked in and drew,then headed to the back of the store. The Armed Good Citizen drew and went in pursuit. The bad guy had a woman accomplice following incognito behind him. She fatally shot our hero in the back of the head.


There are a number self responsibilities to being an armed citizen,and some dangers. Comes with the territory. Heard.


Given more states recognize concealed carry is a good thing,And who knows,maybe we now have 10 times the number of folks carrying legitimately than we did a few years ago, IMO,its time Law Enforcement accepts and appreciates that we are legit and on the same team.
The anti-gun hostility default settings need a reset.

My CCW does not make me a criminal.
HiBC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10247 seconds with 8 queries