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Old November 16, 2018, 12:57 AM   #1
sigxder
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Road Rage or just jerk?

So last Sunday I was coming home from a friends house. Came up to a four way stop. An SUV in front of me was broken down in the turn lane. Got a green arrow and went around him. Noticed an old Infiniti behind me. Just didn't feel right. I made several turns and he stayed behind me.
Knew I was being followed by then. Went past my house because I didn't know want him to know where I lived. Pulled into a gas station with a store with lots of people. I was legally carrying my Glock 19 and pepper spray. So I figure I will go in the store so their will be witnesses and cover if I need it.
Well he pulls up and it's like "oh crap here we go". So he starts hollering that I couldn't make the turn I did several miles back. I explained to him that the SUV was stalled and I had a green arrow. I asked if he was law enforcement and he said no and just went on telling me I wasn't above the law. Blah, blah, blah.
Told him in a firm but controlled voice that I didn't have time for this.
Went into the little store keeping an eye on him. Moved away from anyone who might be in the line of fire. At no time did I threaten him, curse, argue, or touch a weapon.
He finally just left. So it worked out o.k.. Here is my question. When you are followed by someone and confronted in such a manner what does the law say? Is someone following you like that stalking you? Obvious road rage incident. But what does such action fall under according to the law? Probably should of made a police report. But it turned out alright so I just left. I am in Tennessee by the way. Should I have made a police report? What would such actions be construed as under the law?
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Old November 16, 2018, 01:20 AM   #2
Don Dayacetah
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The behavior he showed was obsessive. If he didn't make the same turn, how was he following you? If what you did was so wrong, why didn't he summon law enforcement?
What could you have done, which made him angry enough to follow you, and pick a fight?
Aside from calling the authorities, IMO, you did the right thing, not going home,
and finding witnesses to his aggressive actions.
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Old November 16, 2018, 01:44 AM   #3
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You did well, however a better strategy would be to drive to the police station and alert them of your imminent arrival.

Behavior that far outside of normal deserves to be brought to the attention of the authorities even if no laws have actually been broken.
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Old November 16, 2018, 06:36 AM   #4
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You provided the excuse he needed to explain why he was late picking up the inlaws from the airport.

You did your Good Deed of the Day and get to wear a My Little Pony sticker.
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Old November 16, 2018, 06:58 AM   #5
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Once you were certain you were being followed you should have called the police. If a gunfight had occurred at the gas station and it later came out that you purposefully chose that location because of witnesses, cover, etc because you thought there might be an altercation, yet didn't call the police, it wouldn't go well for you.
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Old November 16, 2018, 07:24 AM   #6
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'Conveying a threat'? Not sure..happened once to me while on bicycle except he 'brandished' a tire iron..he obviously didn't like bicycles on 'his' road..Take license #, call police..probably nothing more than a visit to remind the driver to be 'more polite'..but probably nuthin by LE. OBTW-I carry my little LCP in my jersey pocket now.
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Old November 16, 2018, 09:04 AM   #7
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Back before I owned a firearm, about the same thing happened to me. I was turning left onto a street coming home from work. I looked both ways, but there was traffic and some time passed. When I did go to actually turn, I forgot to look right again. There was a car coming and he had to stop short. I did the "I'm sorry I screwed up" wave, and finished the turn. The man in the car was never closer than say 40 feet from me, so while yes he did have to stop suddenly, it wasn't a near accident. I immediately got a bad vibe. Like you I didn't go home but after a few turns there he was. I should have driven to the police station as John mentioned, but I didn't. When he finally caught up to me he proceeded to scold me for "Nearly hitting him". After a bit he drove off. This incident was a big part in why I chose to buy a firearm.

I drive 25,000 miles a year. People in cars are insane. They feel empowered and do things they wouldn't do otherwise. Not a week goes by where I don't see people who aren't able to move on from some minor incident and take it personally. I've worked with some people that have had a pretty hard life. If the worst part of your day was someone almost hit you or cut you off, it wasn't that bad of a day. The man who followed me above was in his early 60s I'd guess. He chose to follow me with his wife in the passenger seat. He had no idea if I was some kind of psycho and how I would react when he caught up to me. He put himself and his wife in danger for what, to give someone a scolding for an accident that didn't happen? People in cars.

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Old November 16, 2018, 10:12 AM   #8
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Yup they are nuts

The number of miles I put in yearly 50 K plus has had a number of consequences lately.

The latest one? I gave my Prius to my wife and switched over to my 4runner. Went from 45 MPG to about 18 MPG.

If things continue to deteriorate? I'll add the armor plate and a machine gun mount.

We used to be able to count on big rig drivers being the best drivers on the road. Since the driver shortage there are far too many 20 somethings wired on Red Bull or worse piloting 80 K pounds with no regard whatsoever for other drivers.
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Old November 16, 2018, 10:43 AM   #9
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I think you did well.

A lot of people would of told this clown to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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Old November 16, 2018, 11:15 AM   #10
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You did very good I think. I have had several in my many years. I usually let them rant and say well I am sorry for delaying you etc... however I am a black belt , usually carrying and have nothing to prove to an idiot so i just keep a close eye on him and diffuse the situation even if i have to say i am sorry you were right
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Old November 16, 2018, 02:10 PM   #11
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Road rage? No. No aggression or attack, just road based rudeness. It would have escalated if he had encountered a different person. There might have been violence. What makes a kook like that follow and confront an unknown person, when that person may quite reasonably be a ruthless killer? The guy was obviously wrong in his head. He turned away from his purpose and followed you just to yell at you, and he never realized that it wasn't a proper thing to do.

Not knowing why he was following you, what had motivated him and what his intentions were, you were right to prepare for the worst case. Keep the eyes on the mirror, avoid contact, avoid letting him get beside you.

When you find yourself being followed, it's true, you should involve police. taking a drive to a police building may cause the guy to turn away.

Your proper response would have been to contact police via 911. If you are a long or difficult way from a station, the dispatcher can send a nearby car to intercept. Contact the police for two reasons; first reason is that you want them to know what is happening. They function as witnesses. Second is that they can guide you through what course of action to take. Where should you go, etc.

surely you have a phone with a camera. Any time you find yourself in this situation, if it is possible to do it safely, snap some pictures or even record video. You can get his tag number and auto description and probably the driver's picture. His actions as recorded will give an ironclad description of events. You don't even have to keep video, once you have the necessary identification filmed it would probably be a good idea to just set it down and let it record sound.
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Old November 16, 2018, 04:40 PM   #12
Bartholomew Roberts
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The other driver did nothing illegal, so there is nothing to report to police. If you want to follow someone until they stop so you can share your opinion on their driving habits, that is uncouth and unwise; but not illegal.

You were right to be aware and concerned about abnormal behavior; because that can be an important flag. However, not all situations that require heightened awareness require police involvement. Sometimes, you just have to deal diplomatically with crazy people.

My general rule of thumb is the police get called when the situation is beyond my capability to deal with or it is necessary to record an event for legal purposes later. I can’t tell you how often I’ve seen cases where people called police for a minor matter and then ended up in a bind because the police solution was different to their preferred solution.
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Old November 16, 2018, 06:41 PM   #13
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There was nothing to call the police about. I agree completely being a jerk is not illegal. If so we would call the police every time we tried to return an item at any store. Or the rude jerks at the motor vehicle department. Or the neighbor that keeps saying your kids walked on his grass. Don’t escalate it diffuse and move on
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Old November 16, 2018, 07:09 PM   #14
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I agree, no need to call the police, as no law was broken. What a ridiculuos waste of the taxpayers money, to suggest that in the future someone "call the police" when no crime was committed or immediate threat present. We have enough people in society acting like overgrown Jr. High school hall monitors as it is.
People have a Constittional right to be a jerk or have a difference of opinion, on the street or online. Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and walk away.
The police get tired of judgementle people (usually the same ones, calling over and over), pissing, moaning and complaining about every little grudge and slight that occurs, be it a middle finger, honked horn or barking dog. Worse yet are those who call 911 over children selling lemonade without a license, or neighbors having a barbecue and the smoke drifted across the street.
Don't listen to those who encuorage the waste emergency resources and tax dollars on minuscule BS and drama. If you are in serious trouble or a significant law was broken, by all means call. But don't be "that guy".
Dano is right, sometimes certain individuals will not shut up or cease and disengage until you take the high road and difuse it. Apologize or buy him a beer or whatever, to get the guy to shut up and stop his ranting. Well worth being humble to avoid lowering oneself down to their level of stupid.

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Old November 16, 2018, 08:36 PM   #15
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Why stop and give them an opportunity to carry out their mission. I would simply call the non emergency number of the local police and have them get the guy off my butt. If I didnt have a phone and as long as the guys is not trying to crash into me or some crap like that, I would casually drive around until he stopped following me or until I made it to a police precinct.

This stuff is typical jackassery.. I would not entertain it, discuss it, argue it or offer any explanation. Generally speaking, the discussion initiated by a provocateur usually works in favor of the aggressor not the person trying to avoid the conflict. They size you up based on how you respond, they assess your resolve, your confidence, your physical presence, they test your tolerance. Its all a game and one that I will not likely play.

Your situation worked out just fine and that's great. I feel that is worked out not because of anything you did but probably because your aggressor did not want a fight to being with.
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Old November 17, 2018, 10:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
I agree, no need to call the police, as no law was broken. What a ridiculous waste of the taxpayers money, to suggest that in the future someone "call the police" when no crime was committed or immediate threat present. We have enough people in society acting like overgrown Jr. High school hall monitors as it is.
This isn't even a remotely smart thing to say. when my eighteen year old daughter is followed for a mile or two by a car that also turns at every turn she makes, are you suggesting that she should just assume that he's only a jerk, that she should just suck it up and take off the snowflake panties?

There are laws that prohibit stalking and following a person like this is harassment. it can be charged as assault if the prosecutor chooses, if the follower deliberately intimidates the driver or tries to frighten them.

If a person is being followed and the tail never breaks away, even after a half dozen turns, especially If there appears to be some hostile intent, nobody should allow themselves to be followed until they have to stop and leave their car, with a possible assailant within walking distance.

No cop will object to answering a call for a person that is in possible danger of being grabbed or attacked at a gas station. Fifty year old men are sometimes attacked, young girls are sometimes kidnapped. Better to make the man who may be ted bundy explain why he is so interested in the person who he is stalking.

Are you a cop or former cop? Is this your personal opinion, or the policy of a police force?

If you are a cop, and you sincerely believe that checking out a stalker is less important than handing out traffic citations, you need to get a different job. All of this falls under the umbrella of public safety. we hire police to maintain public safety.
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Old November 17, 2018, 10:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
There was nothing to call the police about.
Quote:
I agree, no need to call the police, as no law was broken. What a ridiculous waste of the taxpayers money, to suggest that in the future someone "call the police" when no crime was committed or immediate threat present.
Knowing the outcome of this situation its easy to make statements like this. The problem, however, is that it could have gone very differently putting sigxder in the middle of a violent altercation without the possibility of calling the police until after the fact.

Were I in his shoes, I would have kept driving, contacted the police, informed them of the situation and asked for direction.

I'm not suggesting that the OP's decision was necessary bad, just not what I would do.
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Old November 17, 2018, 11:14 AM   #18
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There is a reason that police departments recommend driving to a police station and up to the building. Very few of the people who play this game, or do it with hostile intentions, want to do so with a police officer as a witness. This tail will almost certainly turn away when it's obvious that it is the destination.

We people who carry defensive weapons do so because we recognize that there is always a risk, a never ending need for vigilance. Yet here we go, when describing a person actively engaging in possibly hostile behavior, people who carry guns are saying "don't be a scaredy cat! He's just being a jerk!"
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Old November 17, 2018, 11:25 AM   #19
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BRIANDG, Allow me to clarify. "Immediately threat" (I wrote that in my previous post)... if an 18 year old girl is being followed, yes, most reasonable people would see that as a threat and justification for calling. Kind of a no brainer. The OP was not an 18 year old girl... I'm assuming. Lol!
A man who follows you (assuming you are a full grown MAN), to voice his concern pertainng to his perception of your driving skills (or lack thereof) and not threatening you or displaying a weapon, most likely doesn't require dialing 911. No law broken, no threat conveyed. Right???
A stalking situation is 100% different and neither I, nor was anyone else on here that I read, implying that one ignore a situation involving potential personnel safety issues. You may want to carefully reraed the posts.
Time, place, situation, your size and ability, and perhaps your confidence level all factor into your decision to call for the Police... or not. Common sense never goes out of style.

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Old November 17, 2018, 11:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
When you are followed by someone and confronted in such a manner what does the law say? Is someone following you like that stalking you? Obvious road rage incident. But what does such action fall under according to the law? Probably should of made a police report. But it turned out alright so I just left. I am in Tennessee by the way. Should I have made a police report? What would such actions be construed as under the law?
I cannot find a full and official legal code for tennessee but several sites that seem reliable provide this code for simple assault. This fits right in with other state codes.


Quote:
Assault (Simple Assault): Assault is defined as either intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causing bodily injury to another; or, intentionally or knowingly causing another to reasonably fear imminent bodily harm. It is charged as a misdemeanor.
He obviously pursued you for several miles, eventually stopping when you did. He launched into a tirade that you weren't above the law.

Quote:
Went past my house because I didn't know want him to know where I lived.
You were obviously, and reasonably so, concerned that the guy was a nutter and that whether it was your life or just your mailbox, the guy who was following you meant to cause trouble.

this event is clearly and specifically assault by definition of his actions, and he clearly and obviously did it deliberately. Malicious intent? Dunno, but it was still deliberate, and that is what the code specifies, deliberateness, with no requirement for malicious intent.

There it is, as close to official as I can get, the assault code for the state of tennessee.
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Old November 17, 2018, 11:53 AM   #21
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A law was broken.

There was an immediate threat, a possibly armed stranger trailed a man for miles.

There was no overt threat of violence, but that's not necessary to give a concern of danger. Road rage doesn't always require "rage." Do drive by shooters signal their intent to attack before spraying a car with bullets?

Common sense is presumed in most legal code, and when I post things like this, i also presume that the reader will use common sense. A reasonable person won't call 911 because a senile old woman is following him, but beyond that, nearly any other incident like this could be a threat, and a person should always think carefully about the motive his stalker may have.

I was driving once behind a guy with a pickup. he drove past a kid on a bike who was riding on the very edge of the street. The passenger leaned out and belted the kid on the head with what looked like a backpack. A kid who waved a sign for dominos here was working, and a car full of guys drove past and hit him with a rock. If you can be blindsided by a bunch of punks on the road, allowing a person to follow you for miles seems to be a bad idea.
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Old November 17, 2018, 11:59 AM   #22
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BRIANDG; What law was "broken"? I'm not seeing probable cause... for anything, at least not that a DA would prosecute.

"Possibly armed"?? Possibly unarmed as well. Was a weapon displayed? What leads you to believe there was a weapon involved? Any Threats conveyed??? What charge would you allege in detail. Where is your probable cause, that you would present to the District Attorney, based upon what was previously written? If you were a responding LEO, how would you write your probable cause for arrest and depict the threat you mention as "imminent "?

Last I knew, driving down the road and talking to someone wasn't against the law. The guy may have been a complete jerk, but he broke no laws from what I read. Please explain in detail how and what laws he violated, what the threat exactly was.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just playing Devil's advocate. Perhaps Tennessee Police and Courts operate differently, but at least help us understand how you think he broke a law.

You wrote ".There was an immediate threat, a possibly armed stranger trailed a man for miles". And then "There was no overt threat of violence,".
Ok, so which was is it, an "immediate threat", or "no overt threat of violence "???

I think they OP handled himself fine, diffused the situation and left. He displayed confidence.

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Old November 17, 2018, 01:04 PM   #23
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Not directed at the OP, but these are dangerous times. My wife has a tendency to honk at people who pull dangerous or rude stunts in their vehicles. I've finally got her to stop, unless it is to warn someone to their benefit. Making any kind of disagreeable gestures to other drivers is creating potential confrontation. If people are into that, enjoy the potential repercussions. Not me. As much as I am tempted at times, it's not worth it.
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Old November 17, 2018, 03:54 PM   #24
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sure shot, the law that was broken was simple assault. According to the laws where he lives, the guy drove in a manner that is certain to intimidate most people and he did it deliberately.

The driver, who was the 'victim' of this low level simple assault misdemeanor, was in fact intimidated to the point that he diverted from his intended path and eventually sought shelter from someone that had caused him to be concerned about his safety. We know this as a fact, he was worried about what the kook was going to do.

His pursuer followed him to his eventual stopping point, the place where he felt safe and able to defend against possible further aggression that he suspected might be violent, and committed a second incident of misdemeanor assault by yelling at him, and went a bit farther than just calling him a jerk.

Two misdemeanor crimes and the police wouldn't be the one filing the charges, in cases of assault, the victim of this (whatever we would call this incident of trailing a driver for several miles, then confronting him and yelling at him) is the one who decides whether to file charges. Maybe they would eventually be dismissed by authorities as being frivolous.

The problem is that we don't know what this guy's pathology was. He obviously has a couple of stripped bolts or he wouldn't have pursued another driver for quite a distance, just to yell at him for driving like a jerk. Most people just throw the bird.

only a couple of months ago, a man in my dear, quiet little town chased another man down, who then stopped on a highway. the pursuer raced to the car and gave him the gun right in front of his two children. the guy died in his car right there with two screaming children in the back seat.

Everyone here can give examples of incidents just as simple as this that ended badly, but also thousands of these incidents that did nothing but scare the hell out of people.

Playing devil's advocate is fine, I am also a devil's advocate, but we aren't on the same page here. There have even been incidents involving a police officer who was a serial rapist and murderer who would pursue women at a certain location along a highway and force them off into a cul de sac off of that highway.

A young lady who worked for me was once followed through a country area and turned three times before the guy backed away. As she told the story about this guy who drove a lime green pickup, I remembered that there was a murder suspect still at large who drove a similar colored pickup, very few of that hideous green were made.

It's not always serial killers or other violent criminals, sometimes it's a jealous husband, or just a kid with too much time on his hands who wants to wind someone up.

I knew a man who was ordinarily a really smart and stable guy, but he had anger problems and could hold a grudge. A person driving a mercury sideswiped him and left the scene, and forty years later when he told me why he still hated everyone who drove a mercury, the rage and bitterness was still there.

There's only one person who knows what is going on when these things happen, it's the guy who is following. It is stupid to presume that anyone who does this is intending violence but it happens, and to err on the side of safety is the proper thing to do.

That is the point of my posts, once again, we don't know what this guy's mental pathology is, but we do know that he's behaving improperly and in a way that a proper person wouldn't.

I presume that everyone has the sense to know when it is a genuine concern, a concern that merits police intervention. Do all of the normal things to get out of it, but when it appears to be needed, it may save a life, or lives.

Something that has never been brought up. Whoever other driver was, he wasn't afraid at all, was he? He followed a "jerk" all over god's earth and confronted him in a parking lot. Was he so stupid that he dismissed the possibility that his 'target' might be the crazy one, the one who would come out of his car with a bat? Or was he the crazy one, the one who had a gun tucked under his leg, ready and waiting to put an end to the jerk who pissed him off?

It bears repeating, over and over again, we do know that the guy was impaired in some way. That wasn't a thing that a person does if he has normal thought processes going.

We don't, however, know what his actual pathology is. Was he taking substances? Was he just someone with cowboy bob fantasies, who wanted to be the town sheriff? Was the guy someone who just hated people who drove mercuries? Or was he someone with paranoid schizophrenia, who had some sort of crazy, maybe violent monolog going through his head? Not every mumbling street person is violent, but the few that are crazy are why we carry guns, and why we should err on the side of safety. It's not about someone who wants to be hall monitor, it's about the kooks who want to control and modify someone else's behavior, and may or may not be friendly about it.

This sort of thing reminds me of the old woman who lived a few houses to the east of me. she didn't like my casual attitude to lawn maintenance. She would come to my house and stand in the street and glare at my home. she would come and pull weeds and throw them onto my porch. she went to the homes of my neighbors and complained. Every time my wife found a stack of weeds thrown on my front porch, she was ready to call the police. Myself, I considered it and just assumed that she was a bitter old maid who really hated beautiful young couples, and believed that the happy couple down the road should be just like she was. Just substitute the dandelions for turning without using a signal.
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Old November 17, 2018, 03:57 PM   #25
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Last I knew, driving down the road and talking to someone wasn't against the law. The guy may have been a complete jerk, but he broke no laws from what I read. Please explain in detail how and what laws he violated, what the threat exactly was.
That's what the problem is. this wasn't driving down the road and talking to someone.
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