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Old August 11, 2019, 08:55 AM   #1
Dennis6474
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Substituting standard primers for magnum

I have searched for this question but have not found what I was looking for.

Question.. What powders can I use to load .357 cases with 140gr lead swc and a standard primers. I have Unique, Bullseye and and some Trailboss, along with a bunch of rifle powders. I had been using Imr 4227 with magnum primers but came into a bunch of standard primers. Several years worth of shooting.

Would appreciate any advice.
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Old August 11, 2019, 09:23 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis6474 View Post

Question.. What powders can I use to load .357 cases with 140gr lead swc and a standard primers.

I have Unique, Bullseye and and some Trailboss,
All these work great with a standard primer.

Magnum primers are only necessary with a few powders in the 357 magnum. Most powders don't require a magnum primer in the 357, in spite of the cartridge's name.
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Old August 11, 2019, 09:48 AM   #3
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BE is too fast for warm to hot loads. Unique is OK and what I use in my 686 snub. For real magnum loads without using magnum primers, 2400 is the go to.
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Old August 11, 2019, 10:39 AM   #4
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All the powders you listed are fine with standard primers, just pick the one that works in the pressure/velocity range you want.
Agree, if you want Magnum Power with standard primers, get some 2400.
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Old August 11, 2019, 02:32 PM   #5
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Thanks, that is the info I wanted. You guys are a great source.
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Old August 11, 2019, 04:47 PM   #6
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As mentioned, 2400 has long been used with standard primers and it offers high performance.

I have also found Longshot and BE-86 to be good with standard primers and good for midrange loads -- not as powerful as 2400 or H110, but still a lot more than W231 or Titegroup.

Really, it's easier to list the powders that actually need magnum primers. IMR4427 is one for sure.

Others that could probably benefit from a SPM primer are H110, Lil'Gun, HS-6, A-No.9, and MP300.

If it's faster than those above, it probably doesn't need a magnum primer.
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Old August 11, 2019, 08:38 PM   #7
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The ground has been covered with a lot of correct answers.

But just to be clear: "magnum" primers and 357 "Magnum" hold no relation to one-another, other than the word itself. I wish the primer manufacturers had used a different term. It brings confusion to the novice loader.

Few propellants require a magnum primer. HS-6, W296/H-110, 4227 are some. There are couple others 300MP(?), N-110(?), that may also need mag primers. It's all about whether or not the propellant is easy to ignite. Some of these big slow propellants are difficult to ignite and get a consistent burn. That's where the mag primer comes in.

I've been loading 357 Magnum across the entire spectrum of power, using a bunch of different propellants, and bullet weights, etc, since 1984. I have loaded a lot - a lot - of 357 Magnum ammo. It's a great cartridge.

Your 140gn LSWC's would do well with Unique (and standard primers). You can use Bullseye and Trailboss, but you'll find them a little touchy - they're a bit fast for the application (standard primers too). I would think that 4227 is too slow for your application; but evidently, you've made it work. I think of 4227 as a jacketed bullet only powder - but that's just me.

Since other's have touched on 2400; I'll add on here . . . I have loaded a lot of full-throttle 158gn jacketed bullets for 357 Magnum. And no propellant that I have use matches 2400. It's the winner for sure. Max velocity with relatively tame recoil and muzzle flash. Makes great ammo for my 4" 357.

And yes, 2400 uses standard primers. In fact, I experimented a lot using mag primers (158 JHP's) and got less velocity, with more apparent pressure. From my tests, 2400 performs better with standard primers than it does with mags.
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Old August 12, 2019, 01:24 AM   #8
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I’m going to be the oddball that says hs6 does ok with a standard primer when loaded to its high end in 9mm pressures and up. Ok is just that... ok. It is a powder where magnum primers are frequently a benefit though, so I won’t argue with previous statements.
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Old August 12, 2019, 08:11 AM   #9
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For 357 mag. Most powders use a standard primer.

If you are using heavy compressed loads of H110 then a magnum primer is in order to ignite the load
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Old August 12, 2019, 08:18 AM   #10
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Imr 4227 doesn't require a Mag primer for its ignition nor do any of those you mentioned in your thread. The only pistol powders I know of that do require a Mag primer is Hodgdon H-110 & Accurate's AA#9.
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Old August 12, 2019, 09:38 AM   #11
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4227 may not need a magnum primer, but over the chronograph IMR 4227, 'likes' a magnum primer. In my tests it cut the ES approximately in half. So I always use a magnum primer with 4227. Found the same thing with HS-6. Note that most of my 'back to back' tests where in .45 Colt.

Quote:
But just to be clear: "magnum" primers and 357 "Magnum" hold no relation to one-another, other than the word itself. I wish the primer manufacturers had used a different term. It brings confusion to the novice loader.
+1 .
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Old August 12, 2019, 04:50 PM   #12
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Few propellants require a magnum primer. HS-6, W296/H-110, 4227 are some.
Interesting, HS-6 you say , i have many pounds of the stuff and it’s just too slow for what I tend to load . Is this just in 357 or do you think using HS-6 with mag primers in 9mm or 45acp is be a good idea as well ?
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Old August 12, 2019, 05:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Question.. What powders can I use to load .357 cases with 140gr lead swc and a standard primers. I have Unique, Bullseye and and some Trailboss, along with a bunch of rifle powders. I had been using Imr 4227 with magnum primers but came into a bunch of standard primers. Several years worth of shooting.
Standard pistol primers work great with those powders. A couple of other powders worth trying with cast bullets are Herco and AA#7; they will be a little more "magnum-ish" but are still economical to use.

2400 is a classic powder for magnum revolver loads, and also doesn't not need a magnum primer.
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Old August 12, 2019, 08:05 PM   #14
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Thread deviation

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do you think using HS-6 with a mag primers in 9mm or 45acp be a good idea as well ?
No. The cases are short/small enough where nothing is gained by the mag primer. Using HS-6, I have loaded 9mm and 45 ACP with and without mag primers. It seems there is nothing to gain. Burns are just as consistent (or inconsistent ) with standard primers. (HS-6 in 45 ACP only runs right with heavy bullets, fully pumped up)

Side note: I use mag primers with HS-6 in 38 Special as well. Although, I could never get it to run right either way. HS-6 simply needs more pressure than is typical in 38 Special (including +P).

And now back to our regularly scheduled programing.
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Old August 13, 2019, 08:41 AM   #15
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Everyone has a different experience...

I started using IMR4227 in .41MAG loads... both for pistol and rifle. I never used magnum primers in it, but was reading an article... the author swore by magnum primers with IMR4227, so I thought I would give it a try. I don't have my data in front of me, but in both a 4" pistol and my 20" rifle the standard primers gave me equivalent velocity and smaller SD than the magnum primers did. (For that matter, I did the same thing with H335 and 55grn 5.56mm loads; in this case I actually got higher velocity and lower SD with standard primers. H335 is a ball powder much like H110/W296 that, supposedly, requires a magnum primer to ignite properly.)

So, at the end of the day... I would give your standard primers a try with IMR4227 and just see for yourself. I will give the disclaimer... I don't fool around with H110/W296, they always get magnum primers.
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Old August 14, 2019, 05:45 PM   #16
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


Yes. I've seen trees of primer tests before that wound up with an astonishing range of velocities and SD's that didn't make immediate sense. A number of years back, Charles Petty had an article in Handloader in which he loaded the .223 with 24 grains of RE10X under a Hornady 55-grain V-max and then just changed primers to see what happened to velocity and group size. The rifle, a Cooper Phoenix, had a 24" barrel. Note that this load is a grain over Alliant's listed maximum for a 55 grain Speer SP, and hence the warning at the top of the page.

Petty got average velocities ranging from 3150 fps to 3300 fps. IIRC, the Federal 205 produced the lowest velocity and the CCI BR4, which is not even a magnum primer, produced the highest velocity, worst velocity ES and best accuracy with this load in his gun. Go figure. My point is the numbers were all over that range so that if you really want to know what primer is best in your gun with your powder, you've got a lot of trying out to do.
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Old August 14, 2019, 08:01 PM   #17
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...if you really want to know what primer is best in your gun with your powder, you've got a lot of trying out to do.
Truer words were never written.

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Old August 15, 2019, 07:58 AM   #18
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Petty got average velocities ranging from 3150 fps to 3300 fps. IIRC, the Federal 205 produced the lowest velocity and the CCI BR4, which is not even a magnum primer, produced the highest velocity, worst velocity ES and best accuracy with this load in his gun. Go figure. My point is the numbers were all over that range so that if you really want to know what primer is best in your gun with your powder, you've got a lot of trying out to do.
One of the other things I gleaned from my informal tests... load density and pressure can have a significant bearing on velocity results as well. A light load of IMR4227, for example, might work better with a standard primer, where a max or compressed charge might work better with a magnum primer. There are only about 100 different things you can tweak on any given handload that will change the results... trying to come up with every combination is an exercise in futility... unless you just have all that time to burn.
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