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Old March 13, 2015, 10:21 AM   #51
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Sorry, but equating "legal" with "ethical" and the idea that anyone would allow a government legislature to deterine what is ethical, shows either a lack of undertstanding of the word "ethical" or an unrealistic faith in politicians to have the same ethics as you and force them on the public as law.
Ethical: Is one's moral values.
Legal: Is being Lawful.

So what's your point?
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Old March 13, 2015, 10:26 AM   #52
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1000-yard <elk> hunting with a .308
That's just wrong in so many ways.

Edit: actually, that's just wrong in pretty much EVERY conceivable way.
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Old March 13, 2015, 10:43 AM   #53
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Sorry, but equating "legal" with "ethical" and the idea that anyone would allow a government legislature to deterine what is ethical, shows either a lack of undertstanding of the word "ethical" or an unrealistic faith in politicians to have the same ethics as you and force them on the public as law.

IMHO, most laws have everything to do with a Government dictating ethics to us. Speed limits, age of consent, laws against theft of property, etc, etc. Many game laws such as season dates and weapons legal to use are based on what that agency has determined to be ethical. This is why some states allow the use of bait/dogs for deer and some don't. Same reason many states have minimum calibers while some don't, Matter of locally imposed ethics, and enforced by laws.
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Old March 13, 2015, 12:57 PM   #54
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Is it ethical? So long as the guy has a license_ legal caliber_ permission/ or public land to hunt_ and shoots during legal time of day.
[quote]IMHO, most laws have everything to do with a Government dictating ethics to us. Speed limits, age of consent, laws against theft of property, etc, etc. Many game laws such as season dates and weapons legal to use are based on what that agency has determined to be ethical. This is why some states allow the use of bait/dogs for deer and some don't. Same reason many states have minimum calibers while some don't, Matter of locally imposed ethics, and enforced by laws. [quote]

Quote:
Ethical: Is one's moral values.
Legal: Is being Lawful.

So what's your point?

My point is that both these statements seem to imply that if it is legal, it must be ethical, and that hunting methods and activities are always ethical provided there are no specific laws prohibiting it. That a 1000 yard shot at an elk with a .308 is ethical based on whether or not a state issues citations for wounded or unrecovered animals, and not on the probability of whether or not it will result in a clean kill. I'm not arguing whther the shot is ethical or not, and for whom it would be ethical. I'm arguing against letting the law be the standard.

I'm sorry if I am not interpretting your statements as you intended them to mean.
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Old March 13, 2015, 02:19 PM   #55
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Would you do it with an '06? Just curious...
99% of my '06 shooting is in the CMP Vintage Rifle games, My Garand, M1903a3, M1917 I shoot at 200 yards. My M1993A4 is 300 & 600 yards.

I built a Vietnam era Model 70 sniper rifle, I did shoot it in a 1000 yard match, it did good but I rather use my AMU Built 308 M-70.

I do have a Pre 64 Model 70 in 06 I use once in a while for hunting, just because.

Most of my hunting is either with my M70 Feather weights (257 for deer and antelope and 270 Win Elk.

I'm not a 1000 yard hunter.
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Old March 13, 2015, 02:25 PM   #56
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can we just bury this thread and get it over with? once ethics enters the fray there is no way to redeem a thread.

here are some facts about ethics.

1. every person's ideas of ethics is a little different.

2. law does not necessarily reflect ethics. speed limits, texting while driving, jaywalking, taxation, and stay off the grass laws have no bearing whatsoever on ethics, yet they are still laws.

3. ethics are formed by a combination of environmental stimuli.
I personally would not hunt deer over a feeder because it violates my own personal ethics, yet that's par for the course in many southern states. I personally would not hunt deer with 22LR, yet it's legal and quite often done in some states. I don't decry anyone for using those methods, I simply abstain from using them myself. in many states, it's almost unheard of to have to shoot beyond 100 yards, and I've been called unethical for making 350 yard shots yet where I grew up, it was not only unheard of but expected to make shots as far as 500 yards. so please. stop imposing your ethics on other members.
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Old March 13, 2015, 02:58 PM   #57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQqPdRgw_w

Here is a video of a hunter taking an elk at 875 yards with a .308. He seems to be a great shooter who knows himself and his rifle very well. It is an impressive shot.

However, I can't help but notice the time between the shot going off and impacting the animal. Seems like it's a dice roll at that point. What if something spooks the animal, or it turns its head to scratch an itch? Maybe it sees something good and walks over to eat it. That could turn your neck shot into a high shoulder or leg shot, even if you had a perfectly placed shot to begin with.
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Old March 13, 2015, 03:42 PM   #58
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I first heard of such desires back in the 1950's. Some things never change.

Someone needs to take this errant, but well intentioned, hunter aside and get real with him in a manner he understands.
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Old March 13, 2015, 03:52 PM   #59
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I concur.
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Old March 13, 2015, 05:18 PM   #60
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This is probably going to come as a shock--but there are plenty of "hunters" out there who don't mind taking risky shots, I've even heard "coyotes gotta eat too."

I remember on some forum a guy claimed he could take a deer at some longish range. To prove his point he had a spotter go with him and he had the guy film it. Sure enough he dropped the deer and the video showed him proudly displaying his shooting prowess.

As I recall, the hunt club threw him out of the club and banned him from hunting there. Not necessarily because he wasn't a very good long range shooter--but because at that long of a range he had a minimal target and virtually no knowledge of what else might be in the back or edge of a limited field of vision.
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Old March 13, 2015, 05:41 PM   #61
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One thing is for sure. This guy is a lot better shooter than he is hunter. A good bow hunter can put his deer stand where 20 yards is considered a long shot.
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Old March 13, 2015, 06:28 PM   #62
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One thing is for sure. This guy is a lot better shooter than he is hunter. A good bow hunter can put his deer stand where 20 yards is considered a long shot
That depends on the terrain. In many places 400 yards is as close as you will ever get. I'm a bow hunter too, I don't hunt with my bow in those places. Not all hunters have the luxury of being able to hunt in those areas where 20 yard shots are a long one.

Not something I'd do, my personal skills aren't nearly that good, but with an aerodynamic 200 gr bullet a 308 has more energy at 1000 yards than a 44 mag from a revolver has at the muzzle. It is probably not as unrealistic as it seems at first glance.
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Old March 13, 2015, 07:16 PM   #63
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That is a good video dacota pots and you can even see that his shot is a through and through but it was a yearling elk which means that it was small not much larger the a good size deer.
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Old March 13, 2015, 07:16 PM   #64
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I don't care how skilled you are, nor how much high-tech gear you have. All it takes at 1,000 yards is a little puff of invisible wind to turn a kill-shot into a crippling shot.

And that's why many of us think, "Unethical." Knowingly taking a shot that all too easily could become a crippling hit.

It's why many hunters in Colorado became contemptuous of Texas hunters is the early years of the 7mm Rem Mag. Too many crippled elk.
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Old March 13, 2015, 07:45 PM   #65
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That is a good video dacota pots and you can even see that his shot is a through and through but it was a yearling elk which means that it was small not much larger the a good size deer.
yearling elk is still a good 100 pounds heavier than the average whitetail. much wider bodied too.
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Old March 13, 2015, 09:18 PM   #66
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At 1K yds, assuming flat ground what is the angel of approach (approx.) for the projectile to the target?
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Old March 13, 2015, 09:40 PM   #67
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I don't hunt anymore so maybe I am out of date here. But going from hunting to bench shooting as I have done I can say this. As a deer hunter I was pretty much limited to 300 to 400 yard shots where we went, that was considered a great shot. Now shooting long range ( and a rookie at that). I see that 300 to 400 yards is very easy. I don't know how big the kill zone is on a big elk,but I do shoot with some guys that could hit the kill zone 10 out of 10 times at 1000 yards. And yes that includes shooting in the wind as that is what we do. Matches are not called because of wind and still they hit the bullseye. So the question of it being ethical would boil down to how good you are. There are some people that ( using what your calling ethical ) should not be shooting deer at 100 yards.
So the question really is- Are you calling it un ethical because it is beyond your realm of precision or shooting ability?. Is it un ethical for a few deer hunters I see every year at the range that can't hold a 5 inch group at 50 yards to shoot a deer at 100 or more yards. My concern is a 308 at 1000 yards. Myself- I would never do a 1000 yard shot,but that is because it is beyond my ability right now.
Case in point- When I was deer hunting,holding 3 inch or 4 inch groups at 300 yards was good to go. Now shooting F Class I find that 3 to 4 inch groups is horrible.
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Old March 13, 2015, 10:54 PM   #68
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Having helped on managed hunts enough to know how difficult it can be for the shooter to pinpoint the spot where a deer was standing when it was shot within 150 yards. I can't imagine trying to pinpoint where an elk was standing from 1000 yards away to begin a blood trail.
Panfisher, you nailed it right here. I've killed several elk, and a bunch of deer, some of which were "too far". When these guys lob bullets at game that far away, they seldom know if they have hit or missed the animal. Almost every elk I've shot took off as if it wasn't even injured, and if you can find the same tracks the elk was standing in 1000 yards away, you're doing verrrry good. We find the skeletons of elk that I suspect have been shot by guys like this, and I doubt the "hunter" even knew he had connected. jd
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Old March 14, 2015, 01:30 AM   #69
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OK,first,he was talking semi-auto .308.

I know when the pressures get a little hot,an ArmaliteAR-10 leaves the brass in the chamber.Is our hero single loading his semi-auto 1000 yd Elk gun?

Or are we going to be realistic about 2.8 COAL and these deep seated 200 gr 308 wonder loads?

As I understand it,keeping a 308 supersonic at 1000 is challenging,and may involve longer barrels and hot loads better suited to a bolt gun.
Now,call your bullet MFGR and ask the minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and perform.Its usually just under 2000 fps.So tell me what is the MV you get with a 200 gr bullet from an AR-10?

OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.
One shot,you are going for an elks kill zone.Not his liver or guts or leg.Thats generally regarded as a 10 inch target.

Fair chase means you are not using a vehicle.You are on your feet with no bench or sandbags.You want a bipod,OK.
I won't say no one can do it.Darn few keyboard commandos can shoot 1 MOA under hunting field conditions at 1000 yds.
Or make a1st round hit on a 10 in target.,not just sometimes.Near every time.

For the shooter,the "risk" is only ego.For the elk,it is prolonged agony.

IMO,its a stunt involving a distinct lack of respect for the animal.

Oh,and,yeah,I do understand.I have a Kestrel and a Leica and a ballistic calculator and a chronograph .I even have a decent long range rifle.
No,not shooting 1000 yds on a game animal.
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Old March 14, 2015, 08:26 AM   #70
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OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.

HiBC- yes I can do this and cold bore shot is always very very close everytime.
I do not have a large margin of error. With my 223 it is within 1/2 inch always.
As I have stated-I would never try a shot like this on a animal.
To look at it another way- I don't know a one sniper that tells his target to wait while he warms up his rifle with a few shots before he shoots them.
When I shoot 1000 yard matches,we get unlimited sighters. This is not to warm up the barrel before shooting. It is to get on target only. Most , me included only need about 2 or 3 shots to do it. And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy. If you have a good rifle and a good scope it is not a Hail Mary shot.

I can take my BR from 100 yards dial out to 1000 yards and first shot will be within 10 inches always.

Which brings me back to-- Me I would never do it, But don't judge other peoples shooting skills based on how good you are. I thought I was a crack shot till I started shooting comp. Reality sucks and it hurts the ego sometimes to. I can attest to that with my personnel experience. Very belittling to say the least.

One of the matches last year, Only 600 yards at that one, But we had 2 people that showed up with ( to me any how) looked like rifles that were built before man was created, open sights and the 2 people shooting them looked to be as old. Those 2 gentleman were on the bullseye right off the bat. I would sit and could not help but wonder-With a new rifle and a good scope- what could they do?. Probably put all of us to shame. Same day same match- I had a 11 year old dust my rear end in that match. My point is-No matter how good you think you are, believe me- There is someone out there that will put you in your place fast.
Could be a 11 year old or a guy (2 of them) that need a cane and a walker to stand up.
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Old March 14, 2015, 09:11 AM   #71
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"And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy."

Yup. No doubt. Probably a fair number of people can do that very thing. Trouble is, that could be five inches behind the heart, in the stomach. Or grazing across the front of the chest, making nice smelly blood for the wolves.

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Old March 14, 2015, 11:45 AM   #72
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Originally posted by Art Eatman:

I don't care how skilled you are, nor how much high-tech gear you have. All it takes at 1,000 yards is a little puff of invisible wind to turn a kill-shot into a crippling shot.
A few weeks back I was watching a show on one of the outdoor channels where they were pushing long range shooting and their long range shooting school. The star of the show and owner of the shooting school took a shot at a mule deer at 800-900 yards and missed. Blamed his miss on his spotter claiming he was too inexperienced to realize there was an updraft coming up the valley. He even claimed he was uncomfortable taking the shot because of the inexperienced spotter. BUT he still took the shot. This is a guy that teaches others to shoot 1000 yards.The point he was trying to make is that even an experienced long range shooter sometimes misses the little things. The point I got outta it was that even for experienced long range shooters, the odds of making a poor shot on an animal at that range, even with the best of equipment, is quite high. IOWs, the show isn't promoting ethics, outdoormanship or hunting skills, just the idea that anyone can sometimes hit something out to 1000 yards.
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Old March 14, 2015, 12:36 PM   #73
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To look at it another way- I don't know a one sniper that tells his target to wait while he warms up his rifle with a few shots before he shoots them.
I don't know of any who want to retreive the "game"
Military snipers often are happy just to wound the target

Quote:
When I shoot 1000 yard matches,we get unlimited sighters. This is not to warm up the barrel before shooting. It is to get on target only. Most , me included only need about 2 or 3 shots to do it. And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy. If you have a good rifle and a good scope it is not a Hail Mary shot.
Within 10" isn't good enough on live targets that can move before the bullet arrives

If it were so easy, they wouldn't let you take "unlimited sighters"
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Old March 14, 2015, 01:00 PM   #74
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Art- That is very true, But that is me. I am a rookie. Some of the guys I shoot against are not rookies. Again let me state- I do NOT condone shooting a animal at 1000 yards. I am simply saying there are those that can do it very well.

Snyper- A snipers job is to take the target out ( DEAD) not wound. Not sure where you get your info from. A wound is only if called for, but there main job is to kill the target. At 1000 yards if you shoot at a moving target , that is not wise. Bullet flight time is? what 1 second?. Standing targets dont move far in one second. The 10 inches is Me. As posted above. I am a rookie and Don't claim to be anything more. My point as I will state again- Don't judge un ethical based on your shooting talent. That means squat to many.

I seem to be under the gun here for saying this. My stance is- I would NOT as I have said 3 or 4 times already. But I do know people that could do this. I am just mearly saying that lots of people here are jumping the gun and saying trash about this guy in question with out even knowing anything about his talent or expirence. Because none of us would or could do it, That means no one else can either. Sad mantality I think. This started out as a question and went to trash the shooter right away. I am simply saying if he is that good, then more power to him. My main concern from the beggening was a 308 for the job.
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Old March 14, 2015, 01:07 PM   #75
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4runner.Ijust read your post,then I went back and read mine.

I think maybe you were responding to your own thoughts,not mine.

I'm really pretty humble about my ability to shoot.(With justification!)

So,no,I do not take the egocentric view that because I can't,no one else can.I know better.

I also recognize some amazing things are done by top shooters.There was a paper plate posted at Cache la Poudre Rifleworks with 5 holes in it,fired at 1000 yds,witnessed.It was done with a 45-70 Shilo Sharps and iron sights

You mention sighters. A few sighters to get on.I have fired groups less than 10 in at 1090 yds upon occasion after a few sighters.Even my mediocre me can do that.Actually,the rifle did it more than I did.

When an elk hunter takes "sighters" its a leg shot(low,left),then a gut shot(elevation good,10 but you were a foot right) oh,gosh,hes flopping around....

I still do not,and did not, say no one can do it.

But I stand by my statement.Keyboard commando is easy.

The person who can sight in at the range,probably on a bench,with wind,mirage,altitude,temperature,etc at the range,travel to a different altitude and conditions,walk around,up and down,find an improvised shooting position on the ground,and get a first round hit within a 5 inch radius of point of aim at 1000 yds is uncommon.That is what I said,and,IMO,there is nothing to argue about.
I don't know you or your shooting.If you want to claim you can,OK.

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